Slightly off topic, but I really wish you could change the description (and possibly age) for your character yourself in game. Characters change over time...
Edit: Amber beat me. [ Edited 03:49:01 PM 08/23/05 ]
Registered Member #164
Joined: 7:11:43 am GMT 07/03/04
Posts: 88
What I meant is - in the best case scenario someone wishes to attack a mage, the player of the mage doesn't mind, they set each other to hostile, the PvP may begin - the mage can target the attacker with his spells, he can escape with GS without being seen/targetable, one of the chars is defeated, life goes on.
Worst case scenario: the attacker looks at the suggested OOC info, tells himself "i'll skip asking, (s)he is okay with it" and proceeds with the agressive actions without even setting to hostile, which, in some cases, gives her/him the unfair advantage of several important seconds, needed by the mage to set him to hostile in order for some of his offensive spells to have an effect.
I've heard of mages being killed this way and have personally lost duels, because for the NWN engine some combat spells have absolutely no effect on non-hostile targets and casting them doesn't change the status of the taget to hostile. You are forced to look for the attacker's name in the player list during the fight...
The fix I meant would change the suggested line to something like:
// OOC info: PvP permission granted; please, set to hostile before the actual attack
Clear enough? [ Edited 04:34:44 PM 08/23/05 ]
Registered Member #198
Joined: 6:30:40 pm GMT 08/02/04
Posts: 2228
I think it should be dealt with on a case by case basis. I am always fine with it, but there are many times when someone just isn't in the mood or in the middle of something where they ask me to wait a bit before PvP. The only annoying part is when someone makes you wait out your buffs, then OKs the PvP and starts buffing.
PvP should be treated for the most part, as PvM, but remember that there is another player on the otherside of the keyboard to think about. You can't make everyone happy of course, but most are as long as they know there are IC reasons for it.
Yes, it does take a bit of extra time for it, but that is why I generally will ask "Hey, someone just hired Cathe to do something to one of your characters. Are you alright with PvPing this, or would you rather find another solution?" if they are fine with it, I let them know that Cathe will be hunting for them, but it might be RL days before she does anything. I will look for a time when I won't be interupting RP and the character is pretty much alone and strike. Now the whole time before that, I have the person set to hostile, and even thier friends, if they often travel with them, just so that if they do see it, they don't have to take the time to set Cathe to hostile.
So far, I have never had anyone premptive strike with OOC info based on that tell, so I think the current methods are fine and I would abhor the OOC info in the description for two reasons. One: If someone came across Cathe now, while I am typing this up, they could kill her and leave, as she is just standing ingame. (stealthed of course) Two: Do you know how much work Bonesly would have to do to change each description, and if the person keeps flip flopping? Lets not make his life any more difficult than it already is running the server and building.
Registered Member #84
Joined: 6:55:49 pm GMT 03/28/04
Posts: 673
Sorry, Niv, but I'm with Cait and everybody else who said "No" on this one.
The only issue I see a problem with is the hostility one mentioned above. Add something in the FAQ about making sure you're hostile before instigating PvP and I'm fine and dandy.
Registered Member #34
Joined: 11:01:04 am GMT 02/26/04
Posts: 2778
@Cait: I asked Bonesly about it before bringing it here exactly for that reason. He said he'd be cool with it so long as the number of changes didn't get out of hand. As for being an AFK target, I'd just ignore that ICly if it happened. Give me my OOC raise and try again some other day.
The thing about setting to hostile is a good point, and one I hadn't ever considered. It should probably be added to the FAQ regardless of the rest of this discussion.
Looking at the results, I'm somewhat surprised. I think this would be a great service to those who don't mind being involved in PvP. I'm sure those people are the minority here, and everybody else wouldn't be required to do or change anything.
As it is now, it is exceedingly difficult to interact with another PC in any combative manner, because of all of the OOC concerns. That is so much the case that I pretty much don't bother with PvP at all, even when it would be totally IC to do so.
Still, I guess I must have worded the question poorly. Let me try that again.
If this suggestion WAS made the standard, do you think it would gain general acceptance?
This is much like asking, "If the metric system was made the standard for all measurements in the US, do you think it would gain general acceptance."
Anybody is more than free to put this stuff in their description. I could make a new PC now and add it, and I'm sure the DMs would be fine with that. It's my choice to allow open PvP. The thing to focus on is if other people would bother to look there, and then realize what was meant.
Anyway, the discussion seems to have had some merit, as some good points have been made.
[ Edited 02:21:08 AM 08/24/05 ]
FEAR the Moorhen of Death (tm). Registered Member #26
Joined: 4:31:20 pm GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 3209
To be honest, I don't think it's likely to be made standard, though, so it's quite difficult to say whether or not it would gain general acceptance, seeing as it appears to me that the majority of people would not accept it as a standard in the first place.
I've only ever PvPed with players I have known well and have RPed long-standing hostilities with, so I've always felt comfortable enough that I trust them not to act in a disrespectful manner during PvP. In that sense I view it as no different to PvM on a DM event - I trust the other players not to grief, just as I would trust a DM.
I haven't PvPed with any of my characters in a long time, but I think that it's quite obvious IC when something is leading up to PvP.
If you know the player reasonably well, I'd expect a simple setting to hostile would be enough to show that the situation is heading to PvP, and would give ample chance for the other person to say "hang on, I don't want this, let's RP a way out of it".
If you don't know the other player well, I think sending a tell before setting the character to hostile would be best, and it really does only take a second. Something like "This will lead to PvP if it continues along this path, are you ok with that?" would do it.
I much prefer this to a universal "I'm ok with PvP" sign in the character description. There may be times when you don't want to PvP, or times when you'd rather run than engage in PvP, and saying "I'm ok with PvP no matter the situation" would probably take those opportunities away as others might assume that it means your only recourse is PvP.
IC-wise, every situation should offer choices other than PvP though. A character can run, can walk away, can back down, etc, and that should always be a viable option - no one should be forced into PvP because they have no other choice IC.
I'm Watching You Registered Member #273
Joined: 7:18:06 pm GMT 09/21/04
Posts: 6051
I am not opposed to PvP. At all. And have no trouble with anyone here wanting to set up their bio to reflect a constant and ongoing willingness to PvP. But I do not wish to see that become the standard for Thain. I would not even want to see that as standard for those who enjoy regular PvP battles.
Here is my take on it, for what it's worth and no disrespect intended to those in support of the idea.
Thain, being an RP server, has established rules that more or less require civility and communication between the players. In Character in the case of character interraction and Out of Character in the case of gaining permission and acceptance for a PvP. To my mind this conversation is one sure way to avoid ooc hard feelings. Both sides know it is coming well in advance of the event. Both sides have an opportunity to get themselves ready mentally, although if one character is surprised that players character will not be prepared. This, to me, is crucial.
If we have a block of players on Thain with "OK to PvP" in their signature I can see a couple... let's call them possibilities. And I do not mean for the possibilities I will mention to be an all inclusive list. I am sure there are many more. But I can see a couple...
One, I can see people (not characters) being surprised by an attack. Sure, if "set to hostile before attack" is in the bio and the attacker complies the defender will have a moment to get ready, but it will still most often feel like having a bucket of cold water dropped on them. Without the few minutes of back and forth "this is leading to PvP" and "my character has a big temper and will want to PvP here if this keep up" and "are you OK with PvP here" I can't help feeling that people will get upset much more often as a result of PvP.
Two, I can see newer players to Thain taking this as a sign that full on PvP action is sanctioned here on Thain. I can see Joe Noobie showing up, making his character and then seeing "OK to PvP, set to hostile first" on a mage in the Kobold area. I can see him walking up, saying "hello", setting to hostile when three feet away and prompty killing the mage, all the while laughing and thinking, "this place rocks! Look, he even left me some gold on the ground!" This player would likely have no awareness of the polite ooc raise that is a part of Thain. And without the conversation prior to PvP contact there is no way for the other player to discover the level of "Thain Education" that the attacker has.
Forgive me if I seem like a wet blanket. For those who have been here a long time and who know the others who might want to PvP their characters this would really not be an issue. But for everyone else I can see trouble coming if we institute this.
I'm Watching You Registered Member #273
Joined: 7:18:06 pm GMT 09/21/04
Posts: 6051
Oh, and one other thing... I think that there should only be one standard for PvP in order to avoid any confusion on the part of players and in order to prevent the DM staff from having to (potentially) settle disputes using two different sets of pre-PvP rules (which could make the water very murky for them. Slippery slope sort of thing, in my opinion.
Am
[ Edited 09:34:12 PM 08/24/05 ]
I'm Watching You Registered Member #273
Joined: 7:18:06 pm GMT 09/21/04
Posts: 6051
Stormkitten wrote ... We already have two sets of rules, though. Two of my characters are instantly fair game because they are MPCs.
Well, while I may be mistaken, it was always my understanding that players must still ask you if you are OK with a PvP battle even if you have a Monstrous Character of some kind. So unless I am missing something (which, I must admit, happens often enough to make me wonder reflexively at this point in my life lol) there is still only one set of rules regarding PvP.
[Humor]Unless you were referring to the truly right and just desire of the guards to protect the poor and innocent from your monstrous characters and their wanton acts of violence and evil? In which case I would have to say, "blech."[/Humor]
[ The Island of Thain ]
[poll] An Idea for Smoothing the Flow of PvP
