Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
I want to address why I think systems like this should be scripted.
It's certainly possible for players to emulate everything about a death system through their game controls and their roleplay. And often they do. I've seen many players get up after a raise and stumble about, even though they didn't have to mechanically. Or make pilgrimages to a temple to pray and refresh after a death experience. And yes, a DM could set out the rules for their session, like asking people not to rez anyone until the fighting's done, or ask people not to respawn and run back, or whatever the DM prefers.
It's hard DM'ing in a near-real time online game environment. There's a lot to keep track of; a lot of coordination to do, and a lot of communication between the DM and the players, some of whom the DM may not know very well. The more we put on the DM to orchestrate and manage the less fun that job is, and the harder it is to fulfill the creative expression that is the whole point of it. And then some of the players won't follow the DM's guidance anyway, probably despite their best intentions; they didn't read the text, it didn't sink in, they forgot in the excitement of the moment, and so on. And then another person who sees that happen and internalizes some upset over it. And sometimes, one finds a player who doesn't have those good intentions. It's human nature, and it's messy. I feel it's just better to have the basics of the mechanics implemented through the game scripting systems. No one can complain that a player got up too quickly after their raise and started fighting effectively again if "soon enough" is consistently applied to everyone through the computer's game rules.
In the best case, none of this scripting is needed. That's how an old-fashioned table-top game goes. It's slow, it's patient, it's face-to-face, it's limited in numbers of participants, and it's among people who know each other and interact with the full bandwidth and richness of human interpersonal communication. But in general, an NWN persistent world won't be best case at all. This isn't definitive, it's just my opinion, and why I prefer scripting.
Finally, let's all keep in mind this is a theoretical discussion -- don't worry about any of this going into Thain. So far as I know, Thain's systems work fine as is, and aren't going to be changed on account of this discussion. No builder zots will be get used for some idea we discuss here that other people all clamor for that we hate, and prevent another actually-planned feature we want to see done from getting in this year, or ever.
Let the ideas range far and wide; I'm interested in hearing about people's experiences with corpse-drop and ghosting systems especially.
Life is full of disappointment. Registered Member #1570
Joined: 9:27:59 pm GMT 04/12/10
Posts: 950
Firstly; I've only read what was in the chatbox the other day.
Secondly; I think the current system(s) in place on Thain are fine as is.
Thirdly; part of the rules as I understand them is that I have the freedom to RP any thing I want. A new/different death system that is more "realistic", "plausible", "whatever" will rob people of RPing their characters death in the way they want to.
as it stands now I (and others) have the freedom to RP their characters deaths (and potential resurrections) as they see fit.
Doorman had some sever consequences for Kladius Korvallis after a solo trip to the Mind Flayers one time. That was great, it was good, fun RP, but it didn't impose itself on anyone else.
Why should I or anyone else be forced into someone else's idea of what "good death RP" is?
Isn't this choice up to me (them) as I (they) see fit?
Any change with "more realistic" or whatever consequences would seem like an arbitrary punishment for no reason, at least to me.
Registered Member #1394
Joined: 3:59:40 am GMT 02/05/09
Posts: 83
AmberOfDzu wrote ...
... why I prefer scripting.
A more punitive system could work, but only if it is a toggle. That way a DM or players running an event can call for its use, and outside of those instances players will not be robbed of their agency.
Here is a good reason why a global death (be respawn or resurrection) system is problematic: The Fray (or The Offering, the superior bloodsport brand). Characters don't actually die at these events, the raising is largely OOC. But under a global death system characters will not be able to continue to fight. It ultimately limits the types of events players can run themselves without DM intervention.
AmberOfDzu wrote ...
Let the ideas range far and wide; I'm interested in hearing about people's experiences with corpse-drop and ghosting systems especially.
There was a system on either World Serpent Inn or a Dragonlance server (I don't recall) where when you died you had to walk (VERY SLOWLY) to an NPC and talk to them in order to return to the game. Death was basically a time sink. I didn't find it particularly meaningful.
But what I did think, and if I may quote Parker "The Hood" Robbins from the esteemed Diablo-like game Marvel Heroes 2015: Well, that sucked.
Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
Shards wrote ...
Firstly; I've only read what was in the chatbox the other day.
It would be very easy to jump to conclusions about this thread from just what was in the chatbox.
Shards wrote ...
Secondly; I think the current system(s) in place on Thain are fine as is.
I think we're all in agreement about that. I certainly am.
Shards wrote ...
Thirdly; part of the rules as I understand them is that I have the freedom to RP any thing I want. A new/different death system that is more "realistic", "plausible", "whatever" will rob people of RPing their characters death in the way they want to.
We're not proposing any new systems for Thain, and I went out of my way to make that clear in the opening post here. And, no one else has, either. We have used Thain's system as a talking point, but that's natural, since it's one we all have experience with in common.
Shards wrote ...
as it stands now I (and others) have the freedom to RP their characters deaths (and potential resurrections) as they see fit.
Yep; but that's not our topic here. This is a theoretical discussion which is not aimed at Thain, or even solely at NWN. Personally, I'd like to take some of these ideas forward into a new sandbox multi-player online game that's upcoming.
Shards wrote ...
Doorman had some sever consequences for Kladius Korvallis after a solo trip to the Mind Flayers one time. That was great, it was good, fun RP, but it didn't impose itself on anyone else.
He's a skilled roleplayer, no argument there. A lot of people have done similar, which we have mentioned in this thread already.
Shards wrote ...
Why should I or anyone else be forced into someone else's idea of what "good death RP" is?
We're not asking you to, it's not what this thread is about.
Shards wrote ...
Isn't this choice up to me (them) as I (they) see fit?
Absolutely.
Shards wrote ...
Any change with "more realistic" or whatever consequences would seem like an arbitrary punishment for no reason, at least to me.
We're not suggesting any.
Look, please read the thread, or at least skim over before jumping in on red alert.
Registered Member #633
Joined: 3:59:33 pm GMT 10/24/05
Posts: 1173
No offense to Shards, but this is one of the problems with these sorts of discussions, and potential solutions/compromises to them:
You almost always get an immediate negative reaction from someone who carries on as if something is being taken (more like "stolen") from them.
Granted, the "right" to RP your own death, either during your actual expiration or in it's aftermath , is important to SOME players. Experience, however, tells me differently: most players will simply take a few moments to go through the motions, and more will simply ignore the opportunity to turn death into an RP experience.
This is part human nature and part the experience of a video game-playing generation that is used to instant respawns, the PC as jack-of-all-trades demigod, and the concept of "I always win".
(Expecting the immediate pushback from the thin-skinned and those who are keen to take offense on everyone's behalf, because apparently that's their self-appointed job. Please know before you write anything, a) you probably don't have the argument that changes my mind if it starts out with "AA, you're a meanie!" or variation thereof, and b) I'll read what you write, but really, I've heard them all for the last 15 years, so save your fingers. This is a theoretical discussion).
The issue is that while YOU may decide to RP your death in a certain way, many will not even bother doing so. Now, what I've been reading all through these threads (for years, literally) is all sorts of dodges, excuses, flip-flops, devil advocate's agreements, and so forth that when it comes to certain aspects of RP we're (and I used that term loosely) all for X when it doesn't cost us anything or place a potential obstacle in the way of the "I always win" mentality, and then we suddenly get all "F*ck no! Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!" if someone should suggest something different.
And I just LOVE how many of those who have the most to say about how it's a drag for them to have to deal with a (theoretical) limitation that would apply equally to all (and which might present new opportunities for the really skilled/hardcore RP'er) are the first to hide behind the maxim that "Thain is accepting of many different RP styles". TRANSLATION: I Always Win.
Reading over these old threads I was amazed at how often that argument got dragged out by players who I happen to know for years started threads/discussions/arguments about other's RP ruining their "immersion" or complaints that someone's sloppy RP stepped all over their RP, or how "X doesn't make any sense".
I think the concept of RP has been expanded, more like stretched, too far in certain respects. It suddenly becomes both sword and shield, convenient prop and inconvenient pain, Holy Grail (strictly for the epic tokens, mind you)and Deadly Sin, depending upon what is most convenient to the individual at any given time.
I think the argument I'm trying to make is about consistency. If you take great pains to RP, say, chattering with the squirrels in the forest, your daily weapon care routine, or perhaps even your personal hygiene habits IG, then at least have the consistency to apply the same standards and care to your untimely (if merely temporary) demise.
This is where some sort of Death System that goes beyond "No XP for 10 mins/level and loss of gold" (a fairly lenient system, by comparison with most) comes in.
Ah, but there's the rub, you see? All of those activities are considered part of a character's LIFE, and therefore, are acted out, in some cases with extraordinary attention paid to the small things; they are part of a character's backstory (and if today's gamer is about anything, it's all about the backstory, baby, almost to the exclusion of everything else), and in most cases the person who makes these efforts and writes interminable character descriptions, and goes through their IG routines in painstaking detail, suddenly finds they don't have the time to RP the details of death with an equal fervor. In fact, with any enthusiasm at all.In fact, they don't want to think about it.
After all, Thain accepts all playing styles. TRANSLATION: That stuff isn't about I Always Win.
It's simply respawn or raise me, and back IG for many. I don't particularly care if some wish to play that way, but Role Playing means playing it all: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
💅 Registered Member #463
Joined: 1:37:12 am GMT 03/10/05
Posts: 7900
The only thing I have against cumulative death punishments is it punishes RP builds, which in my opinion are a rare breed these days on Thain.
I'd rather push the server in a direction that rewards for RP and not powerbuilding, as has been the trend. With that said I don't think there's an easy way to reward RP that's balanced beyond "RP is it's own reward".
Life is full of disappointment. Registered Member #1570
Joined: 9:27:59 pm GMT 04/12/10
Posts: 950
AmberOfDzu wrote ...
Shards wrote ...
Firstly; I've only read what was in the chatbox the other day.
It would be very easy to jump to conclusions about this thread from just what was in the chatbox.
Shards wrote ...
Secondly; I think the current system(s) in place on Thain are fine as is.
I think we're all in agreement about that. I certainly am.
Shards wrote ...
Thirdly; part of the rules as I understand them is that I have the freedom to RP any thing I want. A new/different death system that is more "realistic", "plausible", "whatever" will rob people of RPing their characters death in the way they want to.
We're not proposing any new systems for Thain, and I went out of my way to make that clear in the opening post here. And, no one else has, either. We have used Thain's system as a talking point, but that's natural, since it's one we all have experience with in common.
Shards wrote ...
as it stands now I (and others) have the freedom to RP their characters deaths (and potential resurrections) as they see fit.
Yep; but that's not our topic here. This is a theoretical discussion which is not aimed at Thain, or even solely at NWN. Personally, I'd like to take some of these ideas forward into a new sandbox multi-player online game that's upcoming.
Shards wrote ...
Doorman had some sever consequences for Kladius Korvallis after a solo trip to the Mind Flayers one time. That was great, it was good, fun RP, but it didn't impose itself on anyone else.
He's a skilled roleplayer, no argument there. A lot of people have done similar, which we have mentioned in this thread already.
Shards wrote ...
Why should I or anyone else be forced into someone else's idea of what "good death RP" is?
We're not asking you to, it's not what this thread is about.
Shards wrote ...
Isn't this choice up to me (them) as I (they) see fit?
Absolutely.
Shards wrote ...
Any change with "more realistic" or whatever consequences would seem like an arbitrary punishment for no reason, at least to me.
We're not suggesting any.
Look, please read the thread, or at least skim over before jumping in on red alert.
it's unnecessary to take me to task on all of this because of this:
Shards wrote ...
Firstly; I've only read what was in the chatbox the other day.
secondly i'm not on red alert. so don't jump the gun yourself
Life is full of disappointment. Registered Member #1570
Joined: 9:27:59 pm GMT 04/12/10
Posts: 950
AtanatarAlcarin wrote ...
No offense to Shards, but this is one of the problems with these sorts of discussions, and potential solutions/compromises to them:
You almost always get an immediate negative reaction from someone who carries on as if something is being taken (more like "stolen") from them.
Granted, the "right" to RP your own death, either during your actual expiration or in it's aftermath , is important to SOME players. Experience, however, tells me differently: most players will simply take a few moments to go through the motions, and more will simply ignore the opportunity to turn death into an RP experience.
This is part human nature and part the experience of a video game-playing generation that is used to instant respawns, the PC as jack-of-all-trades demigod, and the concept of "I always win".
(Expecting the immediate pushback from the thin-skinned and those who are keen to take offense on everyone's behalf, because apparently that's their self-appointed job. Please know before you write anything, a) you probably don't have the argument that changes my mind if it starts out with "AA, you're a meanie!" or variation thereof, and b) I'll read what you write, but really, I've heard them all for the last 15 years, so save your fingers. This is a theoretical discussion).
The issue is that while YOU may decide to RP your death in a certain way, many will not even bother doing so. Now, what I've been reading all through these threads (for years, literally) is all sorts of dodges, excuses, flip-flops, devil advocate's agreements, and so forth that when it comes to certain aspects of RP we're (and I used that term loosely) all for X when it doesn't cost us anything or place a potential obstacle in the way of the "I always win" mentality, and then we suddenly get all "F*ck no! Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!" if someone should suggest something different.
And I just LOVE how many of those who have the most to say about how it's a drag for them to have to deal with a (theoretical) limitation that would apply equally to all (and which might present new opportunities for the really skilled/hardcore RP'er) are the first to hide behind the maxim that "Thain is accepting of many different RP styles". TRANSLATION: I Always Win.
Reading over these old threads I was amazed at how often that argument got dragged out by players who I happen to know for years started threads/discussions/arguments about other's RP ruining their "immersion" or complaints that someone's sloppy RP stepped all over their RP, or how "X doesn't make any sense".
I think the concept of RP has been expanded, more like stretched, too far in certain respects. It suddenly becomes both sword and shield, convenient prop and inconvenient pain, Holy Grail (strictly for the epic tokens, mind you)and Deadly Sin, depending upon what is most convenient to the individual at any given time.
I think the argument I'm trying to make is about consistency. If you take great pains to RP, say, chattering with the squirrels in the forest, your daily weapon care routine, or perhaps even your personal hygiene habits IG, then at least have the consistency to apply the same standards and care to your untimely (if merely temporary) demise.
This is where some sort of Death System that goes beyond "No XP for 10 mins/level and loss of gold" (a fairly lenient system, by comparison with most) comes in.
Ah, but there's the rub, you see? All of those activities are considered part of a character's LIFE, and therefore, are acted out, in some cases with extraordinary attention paid to the small things; they are part of a character's backstory (and if today's gamer is about anything, it's all about the backstory, baby, almost to the exclusion of everything else), and in most cases the person who makes these efforts and writes interminable character descriptions, and goes through their IG routines in painstaking detail, suddenly finds they don't have the time to RP the details of death with an equal fervor. In fact, with any enthusiasm at all.In fact, they don't want to think about it.
After all, Thain accepts all playing styles. TRANSLATION: That stuff isn't about I Always Win.
It's simply respawn or raise me, and back IG for many. I don't particularly care if some wish to play that way, but Role Playing means playing it all: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
Nev wrote ...
A more punitive system could work, but only if it is a toggle. That way a DM or players running an event can call for its use, and outside of those instances players will not be robbed of their agency.
Here is a good reason why a global death (be respawn or resurrection) system is problematic: The Fray (or The Offering, the superior bloodsport brand). Characters don't actually die at these events, the raising is largely OOC. But under a global death system characters will not be able to continue to fight. It ultimately limits the types of events players can run themselves without DM intervention.
One way this could be accomplished, and with any death system, is to have a toggle flag for "sparing mode" or whatever people want to call it. A player can toggle this flag, and then if they die to actions of any other player with the same toggle flag set, then there's no death aftereffect, and perhaps even a cost-free immediate raise. However, setting the flag would still let one be killed by PvE and face a full death experience, or by a non-flagged PvP player.
So, something like "the Fray" would start with the participants setting their flags, which would put some sort of notification out, or make them pulse blue for a moment or something.
[ The Island of Thain ]
Discussion of Death Ideas
