Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
Metaltree in chatbox wrote ... If you want to discuss your preferences on permadeath and grisly realities in a fantasy world, I suggest you start a thread, and please stay respectful of everyone's opinions.
I don't want to talk about permadeath per se; rather, about death systems, and how scripting might keep them respectful, consistent, and more consequential, without taking the fun out of it.
There is real permadeath on Thain at present; and there always has been. But it's also completely voluntary. Players permakill their characters by not playing them again. The nice thing about this is that it's reversible. A player can choose to bring a character they had decided to have 'permadie' back, and some good roleplay has resulted from it over the years. Good roleplayers take this seriously, but it doesn't take them as players out of the game.
I'll cite a few previous threads as reference for the discussion. Please take time to skim over or even read them if you haven't. Some contain official staff positions that may have been OBE'd since the threads were current.
There's a lot more. This is a long and storied topic.
With all that in mind, I want to ask for ideas on how one might deathmore interesting and fun. For the time being, assume this is all theoretical, and could apply to any NWN server, or even conceptually, to any online multiplayer game. I doubt staff is minded to make any changes to the death system, so let's try not get into that fear of change mode. It's all ideas; some will be stinkers, some may sound interesting, some might be gems. If we don't like an idea, let's explain why we don't like it, or try to offer modifications that would make it better, or even offer a complete alternative.
I'll offer one to start discussion. I'm going to take Pentan's post from the chat-box and see if I can build on it.
Pentan in chatbox wrote ... Played in a group one time where you had to make a Con roll to be rez'd. 18 con was pretty much automatic but you lost a point of Con for every raise..so over time it getting killed knowing you'd just get brought back got dicey. Pun intended.
Forced play to be less Arcadish.
The problem here, in my opinion, is two things. First, it's still an instant easy raise if the decreased has high CON. Second, if successful, the character lost a point of CON. A lot of players would see this as permanent damage to their character.
So, regarding the first part, I would require that if hostiles are near the caster of the resurrection/raise or the deceased then the caster has to pass a roll too. Maybe a concentration or wisdom check at a heavy minus. Further, the raised would be dazed for a short period as an aftereffect of the spell. Perhaps this would be just a few minutes for a raise dead, and only a few rounds for a full resurrection.
For the other part, I would put a semi-permanent negative debuff on CON, instead of actually removing a point. It could be -3 for a respawn to a bindstone, -2 for a raise dead, and -1 for a full resurrection. They would stack, too. This modifier would naturally expire after a day or two real-world, and could be removed sooner than that by some simple, but non-trivial quest or NPC action. Such as being blessed by cleric inside a temple or at some altar somewhere, where one's character has to kneel in a prayer animation for a few minutes.
So, let's say there's a dungeon expedition. Having someone die hurts, and makes success less likely, since they'll be down hitpoints and saves for the remainder. A battle can't be rescued by having the cleric chain-rez people in mid-fight, since the attempts would often fail, the raised would be weaker afterwards, and those disadvantages would stack. Players wouldn't fear any permanent death effects on their characters, but they'd worry a bit more about it happening, here, today.
In a PvP engagement, dead characters couldn't just respawn and run back to the fight over and over. The stacking CON debuffs would really add up. They'd need to take a little time and get the debuffs removed. Perhaps by then, the heady moment of the confrontation would have passed.
For a player out soloing, this isn't a whole lot different than the death debuff on experience gain Thain already has. But it would be a reason to actively play to have it removed, not just wait at the fire while the no experience gain timer counts down. It a very modest sense, it's active instead of passive. It would be better if another player could remove it, for more of a sandbox system.
This is just one idea. Do we see problems in it? How about alternatives? Dropping a corpse object on death? Wandering ghost systems? Afterlife survival-treks?
Personally I like it. It ensures that basically, if you start dying on a trip somewhere you lose efficiency.
At the same time, if only one party member dies due to lag or bad luck it isn't the end of the world. A group of 3-5 level 20s losing 20 HP in total isn't bad (assuming life stone res, -2 CON). However, if you have 5 deaths in the group over the course of an adventure it will have an impact, so you'll want to avoid that. The loss not being permanent is a prequisite, I think. Permanent stat loss would be an unproportional pain in the ass for a character that is kept around for years.
I'm not sure about the check for raising someone, I'd not wand the random element. But being out of comission for a while after a combat res is a good idea. It builds the concept that you raise people after the encounter is won - so you'll want a sound tactic to avoid your squishy group members being wiped out.
Registered Member #345
Joined: 2:28:49 am GMT 11/25/04
Posts: 1954
I like the idea as well, particularly if it would be made available as an opt-in and reversible decision (i.e., a wand setting). That way a party could agree to go on a particular adventure in that mode, but those who would not typically choose that mode for themselves could reset it after that particular trip.
As an addendum to what Amber suggested, it would be cool if a raised character were essentially incapacitated for a RL minute after they were rezzed. That would make in-combat rezzing effectively useless. Again, I think something like this only works if it would be opt-in and reversible.
Be kind to each other. Registered Member #1711
Joined: 2:51:22 am GMT 04/03/11
Posts: 1995
The system my former PnP team was very similar to this -Clickedy-
Speaking to my former DM this morning he corrected me that "at 18 you had a 90% chance (not automatic) rolling above the stated number got you a -1 to Con. House Rules at the time allowed that you could visit a Cleric pay a healthy tithe and get the Con back provided you can make a second Con role at your current level. So 85 at a 17 Con.
Since not everyone starts at 18 we allowed a Wish Spell to restore health (Con) with no ill effect by 1. So if you lost two points before using a Wish spell you were S.O.L.. thats PnP. In a video game you may simulate that by visiting an NPC cleric or mage who you'd pay a proportianaly fair amount of coin for the stat recovery. "
***
Also I was really not proposing we change how we do it. I mean we can if everyone agrees but my comments were that we should not abuse deaths shortcommings. RPing in an "I dont care" attitude is really imersion breaking just as whipping out potions and scrolls while deep in combat with melee opponents on top of you. Doing so in a regular well run PnP session gets you an empty broken bottle with wet feet or a Slashed piece of useless paper..
Solo I would think its ok to ignore the above. Even silly things like whipping out 1 of 20 wands which is hardly "realistic" within a given fantasy realm setting. But if House rules are ok with that then its OK!
However in a DM event me thinks we should pause and at least consider "would my action be something id read in a good fantasy novel or movie or instead something I get away with on my Playstation."
Registered Member #23859
Joined: 2:55:57 pm GMT 06/24/14
Posts: 409
It bites to die during an event to be dead and see things happening. However I believe if someone dies make sure area is cleared of hostiles before they are rezzed as this may result in having to use several on one character.
In battles the injured and dead are usually moved if area cleared.
I have seen it done elsewhere but I do not know if it can be done here or if people want it.
The ability to actually carry the body away but they would need to also try and carry any bags the person may have. Granted if this goes into affect people will streamline what they carry.
Another option is after a while the character can choose to return and would be invisble and immortal for a short time to gather what they can and run for it.
'Lupi made me do it Registered Member #175
Joined: 5:49:41 pm GMT 07/23/04
Posts: 4286
Vae wrote ... As an addendum to what Amber suggested, it would be cool if a raised character were essentially incapacitated for a RL minute after they were rezzed. That would make in-combat rezzing effectively useless. Again, I think something like this only works if it would be opt-in and reversible.
This is a neat idea but I would imagine would only work if a- you were temp. neutral to any hostiles in the area to stop you getting attacked again if you were raised by an over-eager party member during the combat still but would prefer to RP some sense of "near-death-state" rather than hop onto your good foot into the fray once more
or perhaps b- you kept the temporary "damage reduction" while in your "near-death-state" for the same reasons. Potential bugs and exploits in both I assume unless it's fairly bulletproof, which we know NWN is not!
I'm not sure any changes (and I know we aren't discussing changes just ideas) to the death system should be optional (for players) however, as long as these debuffs' are indeed temporary.
I also wonder if they should only take affect after passing a certain level - I for one find it hard enough to get a new character levelled up effectively at any speed as things are without having this to add to it too! I appreciate I may be alone/of the minority in this though...!
arrivederci, megido Registered Member #1403
Joined: 3:11:09 am GMT 02/26/09
Posts: 1864
I do like the ideas in this thread, particularly those that restrict resurrection during combat.
However, if these ideas were to be implemented in "any NWN server" it would not be on Thain, and more likely would fit servers that have a history of enforcing strict death rules. The problem on Thain being that on principal, Thain caters to all playstyles and having a "harder" death system in combat is not some people's play style. Having it changeable and on a wand might work but I am not wholly certain that that is even possible - and having it available to be chosen at 5/10/15/20 might be good, like the XP penalties. Still, someone who knows scripting well will have to chime in and say if that sort of thing is even possible on a wand. I know that this is not the discussion, but I still think it's important to understand that these ideas aren't actually viable. I understand that this is to foster discussion on death and scripting, however, so I will move on.
I think the best and most important point brought out in the chatbox posts and in this thread is Pentan's -
Pentan wrote ...
Also I was really not proposing we change how we do it. I mean we can if everyone agrees but my comments were that we should not abuse deaths shortcommings. RPing in an "I dont care" attitude is really imersion breaking just as whipping out potions and scrolls while deep in combat with melee opponents on top of you. ... However in a DM event me thinks we should pause and at least consider "would my action be something id read in a good fantasy novel or movie or instead something I get away with on my Playstation."
I don't care much for permadeath or people who use the stones "willynilly" as I consider those personal RP decisions to make - whether you address the stones, ignore them, RP deaths or RP serious injuries and crawling away, that's all up to you and every player is within his right and ability to make up whatever they like regarding death!
HOWEVER - in DM events, and in PvP events I think it is highly important that you, as a player, take a look at your character and your situation and try to make sense of it. If you are a character that plays a caster or support, and frequently runs around DM/PvP events resurrecting every character as they fall, I will most likely not play with you and I would not DM for you. I consider that incredibly disrespectful, especially if a DM has taken care to balance creatures, or if the event or boss is meant to be overwhelming. This playstyle where players suck all of the messed up juices out of NWN and exploit its little bugs and strange system to win in PvP or DM events or just in general, really really really bugs me. It speaks to me and shows me a player who thinks "winning" is the most important thing, and isn't here to tell a story, but rather win at a story. Those people I am usually not interesting in writing with to a great extent. I can't tell people not to play like that, but I can say that I dislike it.
At the end of the day, with the current system, all we can do is agree upon resurrection rules before events and stories, and hope that the other party has enough respect and follows through. I think most people in this community are good enough to do that, but I have seen a lot of in-combat resurrecting and I am sure there will be plenty more. Despite this, I'd still be against scripting or implementing anything to mechanically stop players from doing it, because it is their playstyle.
--
Alternately, so I'm adding a little more to the conversation:
I think the coolest death system ever, mostly unrelated to NWN is where like, once you die you become a useless ghost, and you have to travel across the land / through astral realms to find your corpse and reclaim it. Dunno why, just sounds fun. I'm sure it'd become a big hassle so everyone would be really careful not to die. "Sigh, Dave's dead again." "Alright just give him five minutes and then we'll keep going."
I'm Watching You Registered Member #273
Joined: 7:18:06 pm GMT 09/21/04
Posts: 6051
I like the idea of degradation over time. Always have. In PnP it works well because a DM says, "This is how it is."
Might not work here. Too many people are dead-set against anything that limits what they do with their character. And, to me, such a system really only works if it applies to everyone equally.
From way way back when I was playing AD&D, I recall that each ress. or raise caused the loss of a point of CON, which meant less chance of a successful raise each time thereafter as the chance of success was tied to CON. This made not dying very important. But that was in PnP.
Here, particularly these days when Thain is primarily a social server (my opinion, please don't anyone get your panties in a wad) it's a little more like The Sims than I like. But if the only players doing it are the ones looking for consequences and character degradation over time, I am not sure it's worth much, despite the fact that I would like it if it was applied to everyone.
As for the whole "ghost/astral/find your body" thing, the one time I investigated a server with that sort of system I found it a huge pain in the ass that didn't add anything but aggravation. Couldn't RP with anyone. It was just a time sink without interaction.
Registered Member #1004
Joined: 12:54:02 pm GMT 03/16/07
Posts: 2499
I do not believe that these are the sorts of things that need to be scripted. Perhaps I am the only one, but it seems like something that's a waste of builder time to regulate, when it could be something easily managed by players themselves.
If it does get regulated, people are just going to remake/rebuild/newbuild even more powerful cheesel than they already are.
So really.. all that will happen is that we'll see a rise in characters who are focused in massive con scores. Or whatever it is, just to 'beat the numbers.'
Registered Member #1394
Joined: 3:59:40 am GMT 02/05/09
Posts: 83
Pentan (Chatbox) wrote ...
Well I think people should try and play more realisticly especially during events. Whipping out a rez scroll while your surrounded by mecenaries whipping long swords at you while your reading seems arcadish. I also see alot of "backing away to break targeting" alot now.
Maybe much ado about nothing.
But yea I think part of preper RP is not to leverage the game engine limitations.
I think this is the real heart of the matter whenever death comes up. So, my question is this: Why not run major events more like real D&D?
1. The Event is assumed to occur in a real time 8 hour period. This means no resting, or spell restoration. 2. Limit the number of readied items a character could make use of on a per encounter basis (potions, wands, scrolls). 3. No using the Heal skill. It's an abstraction of natural healing in D&D suited to a more fast moving, largely single-player experience.
However, these things will require more effort on part of Staff running events. Encounter design and understanding potential healing will become paramount to a fun experience. So, basically, what you put into it will be what you get out of it and everyone can run things in the manner they are most comfortable with.
Amracil wrote ...
... I found it a huge pain in the ass that didn't add anything but aggravation.
I think you've come to your own conclusion about broadly applied death systems. Nor do I think it would help your perceived problems with the server. At best it might shuffle some characters around and create a new host of them built around gaming whatever a theoretical new death system would be.
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Discussion of Death Ideas
