! Registered Member #20
Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 7123
I wouldn't put too much stock in what Obsidian is saying about Mac/Linux ports just yet. NWN2 is still at least a year from release, and we haven't even seen a screenshot yet. In Obsidian's position I certainly wouldn't release any information about possible plans for a Mac and Linux port, even if I were 99% sure such a thing would exist in the final game.
Why? This is why. It's a lesson Obsidian has almost certainly learned following Bioware's mistakes.
As for Thain's future as regards NWN2 - it is simply too early to say anything definite, even at a guess. The game is simply too far from release to judge over NWN or any other contender.
I will say that I consider Dragon Age a pretty unlikely place for Thain to go, and an unlikely place for PWs in general. Bioware's (perfectly reasonable) unwillingness to support the miniscule persistent world market is clearly shown in their design decisions. Certain aspects, such as the lack of a Day/Night cycle, are clearly geared towards SP play.
More damning is the fact that the toolset apparently will not function well as an area-builder (though that remains to be seen to some degree.) When you remove NWN's nice tilesets in favor of individually modded areas the workload of creating a PW goes from something a few gamers can do in their spare time to something that requires several dozen professional devs working for (quite literally) years.
Would it suprise anyone to learn that creating a PW under the comments Bioware has currently made on DA would be a project of considerably wider scope than, say, DLA? Such a toolset is flaming hot death for any PW community.
NWN2 has much more potential - but as stated above, we shall see.
Registered Member #5
Joined: 6:48:49 pm GMT 02/16/04
Posts: 4184
Well, morrowind was easy to world build for without a tileset system.
But from a game design/building point it's quite true - concentrating on single player opens up sooo much. Even just with the nwn toolset while you can do a lot with stuff for PWs.. modules I'm designing for single player can be an order of magnitude cooler/different.
! Registered Member #20
Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 7123
I'm not familiar with Morrowind's editor. Wasn't it something like 'painting' objects down while having to individually model the terrain?
Regardless - from a short look at the Morrowind mod scene it looks like most mods out there are modifications or additions to the OC. Nothing anywhere near the sheer scope of a PW.
And the problem gets worse, because technical requirements have increased since Morrowind's release. A half-decent 3d modeler can create something, put it into NWN, and have it look decent enough so as not to stand out. A good modeler can create creatures equivilant in quality to what we saw in the OC, and a really good modeler can do much better.
DA and its expanded technical requirements will raise that bar considerably. Since NWN's release I'd say there are probably a little over a dozen modelers in the community who are capable of creating the sort of high res environments DA will require. Most of them work for DLA.
That isn't anywhere near the critical mass needed. A mod scene, by definition, builds upon itself. A stream of gradually improving mods maintains player interest, and the players maintain modder interest. If the mods aren't getting made, or there is a very long wait between mods, the playerbase will fade away rather than wait around.
Of course, Bioware may simply be waiting to announce more on the toolset and it may be possible to more easily create areas after all, but current comments do not sound good.
Incidentally, I see your point on single player and I quite agree. I imagine I'll buy DA the day it comes out, mods or not, and I imagine I'll enjoy it immensely. It just seems to be focusing on the single player side - which, if it's KOTOR quality or better, is okay with me.
Registered Member #5
Joined: 6:48:49 pm GMT 02/16/04
Posts: 4184
One person's modelling is anothers lego building
Empty areas on morrowing are just sea, to create land you basically grab an area and pull it up to the height you want. The amount you grab at a time is easily changed, then you paint on terrain type. Buildings etc are pretty much drag and drop or paint.
There are total converstions and entire new games/lands. (one nutty group is recreating the rest of tamriel - vvardenfel, the island in morrowind is about 2-4x the size of Thain, or more, but it's just one small island on Tamriel, which is about 100x as large again...)
But no multiplayer so obviously no PW
I think there is a difference between modelling (requiring use of 3rd party tools especially) and building using a toolset provided with the game. Anything provided with the game will be simple enough that the mod efforts will be huge I think.
DLA have the skills to create new models.. but I don't think that's going to be required for a lot of DA stuff, providing it's got sufficient flexibility.
! Registered Member #20
Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 7123
If the editor is Morrowindish I'd tend to agree. It sounds as is that toolset is 'easy' enough to allow for level creation.
However, that doesn't mean that every toolset released ever will be. This quote in particular worries me:
Darcy Pajak wrote ... The DA toolset is more powerful to use then the NWN toolset was. This is both a good thing, and can be seen as a bad thing. it's good because you'll have more opportunity to do the things that the NWN toolset couldn't Most things are looking like they can be manipulated through scripting, and not through coding so the basic rules can be modified. However, this requires more scripting knowledge. Also, At this time it's not looking good for a level-creation tool. You'll either have to use one of our levels, or build one in a third party 3d modeling tool, which will take a lot of time. But the huge benefit of that is you can build the level to look exactly like you want it to, and it should solve a mess of walkmesh issue we currently see in the tile-based system.
I expect that this means that fewer people will use it, but the one's who do will make way better modules.
Making a level in 3DS Max is far far more work than creating a level in the editor you described. If indeed we're stuck without the ability to make new levels using tiles or some other 'easy' editor, then I suspect the mod scene will be very limited. Far more along the lines of KOTOR than NWN.
The thing is, the toolset is made for the developer's first and foremost, and the developers do have a dev team's worth of artists backing them up. They don't need a tile-based or other 'easy' system to create their areas because they can make better-looking areas through individual rendering, and probably take about the same amount of artist time.
We shall see, however. There's still plenty of time for things to change with DA.
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