Registered Member #24041
Joined: 4:19:01 am GMT 01/24/17
Posts: 2147
Hi everyone! I’ve gotten a few questions/comments/concerns from folks over the past few months about epic levels and such, and I think some folks have sensed there’s been some minor changes in the process, so we the staff wanted to put out a quick little FAQ to discuss what has changed, what has remained the same, and how the epic process might be a little different than it was 10 years ago. I don't think anything here will surprise you very much, and most of this is known already, but as staff we felt it would be good to have a place where things were made clear instead of having folks have to find this out through the grapevine, as it were.
Two key things I want to emphasize from the start:
There are exceptions to every scenario I’m about to list here; these are general thoughts. There is not, has never been, and never will be, a set path to an epic level. Every character is different, and every scenario is different.
Question 1: Who is eligible for an epic level?
A: Typically we will wait for about 6 months of active play minimum before considering any character for an epic stone (and for returning characters or characters that are rarely played, we are talking about 6 months of active play since the character’s return or since they became more active). Note that this is just the minimum- plenty of characters grow, change, etc. over the course of their lifespans, and in doing so may reach the point in their story where an epic level makes sense after several years rather than several months.
Question 2: What do you look for in an epic character?
A: Every staff member has slightly different criteria and things they think are most important, but generally:
1: A character who is always in-character. 2: A character who has a clear understanding of their goals and motivations (more on this later). 3: A character who can support other plots as well as start plots of their own. 4: A player who is pleasant to work with OOC and who will be a great representative of Thain’s culture to newer players. 5: A player/character who handles conflict and losing well, both IC and OOC. 6: A character who is transitioning from a simple adventurer to someone tied to some aspect of the setting (a faction, a location, etc.)
Things we do not consider: 1: How mechanically powerful the character is. 2: How many followers the character has (a great example of this is Malam- when we look at Malam, we do not consider how many people, on average, attend a nature night. The question is whether or not the things Malam does are deserving, regardless of how many show up to appreciate them.) 3: A character’s social or romantic entanglements with other characters (an epic character needs to be able to stand on their own, not as part of a group or a couple).
Question 3: How does the epic process work behind the scenes?
A: On the staff forums there is an epic nomination thread. Any staff member, at any time, can nominate a character for an epic level. They typically give a short blurb about why they think the character is ready, and then it is open to a vote. Staff can weigh in with experiences with the character, concerns, questions, etc. As the discussion progresses, staff members vote For, Against, or Abstain from the character, and in the end it’s just whatever the majority decides. If there are more abstain votes than anything else, we usually note that character and resolve to continue watching them for a while to see whether the folks who abstained come down on one side or the other. There is no “closing date” for an epic vote- it remains open for as long as we need to decide for or against, or to decide we need to wait a while and revote in a few months.
i. As a sidenote, epics for staff members work the same way, with the following exception- instead of posting to the general thread, whoever nominates the staff character contacts Jewwe to create a thread in discord which all staff members except the player of the character nominated are included in. This allows us to discuss the merits and shortcomings of our own characters without needing to worry about the person we’re discussing seeing the discussion.
Question 4: If a character is voted against, are they out of the running forever?
A: No! And in fact, many characters were voted against once, only to be voted for later, once they had better established themselves/become better-known/spearheaded an interesting plot. The most common reason people vote against a character isn’t that they don’t like the character- it’s that they want to see more good things from them, and for their story to develop further, before they are comfortable voting for an epic. Once a character has been voted epic the process can then take several weeks, or even months to plan and schedule. I know that several characters have been voted for an epic and then had the event run 3-6 months after the vote passed.
Question 5. What should I do if I feel like a character is deserving of an epic stone that hasn't been granted one?
Answer: Whether it's someone else's character or your own, it never feels great to see or do RP that you feel like isn't being understood or valued. You are always welcome to poke a DM privately about a character that you think falls into this category, and we take player recommendations like that quite seriously, as while we try to be as active as we can, staff cannot be everywhere and see everything. We would, however, encourage you to consider the points from question two as you think about this, and consider whether the character would be improved by a bump in mechanical and RP power at this point in their story, or whether it would hinder their journey more than help it. Epic characters tend to attract more conflict, have their interactions with others more heavily scrutinized by both other players and staff, and generally are expected to try and uphold a higher standard of RP than your average adventurer. A character that shies away from taking responsibility for their actions, is built around being more loose and semi-OOC, or who just doesn't want the extra scrutiny that might come with being epic may not be a good choice for an epic stone. None of those traits are inherently bad, we just try to take a long-term view of a character, and as much as we can, ensure that they will not find the stone more a burden than a reward.
And while epic stones are one of the more visible ways characters are rewarded for RP, they are hardly the only way- areas like the Lumenshire caves, the meeting room in Jerrit's tomb, even the wild grove, were all created before any of the characters that inspired them had epic stones. In addition, personalized items, smaller more personalized DM plots, etc. are all ways we try to encourage and reward everyone as much as we can!
Question 6: What has changed?
A:
1: In the past, hours played was much more heavily weighted for epics than it is now. Those of you who have played on Thain for 10+ years will recall the days where you were considered a powergamer if you got to level 20 with under 500 hours played on your character. The culture has changed since then, and now, while we do want a character to have been around long enough to feel like a part of the island, we don’t have nearly as high a bar for hours played as there was before.
2: Going back to character goals and motivations, typically we like to have a good sense of what a character is trying to do or what their in-character goals are before we consider them for an epic event, as the event is often modeled around giving them additional tools to approach that goal. An epic event is almost never going to have the character achieve that goal, but it will often give them mechanical/rp tools to give them new ways of approaching the goal. In the past, epic events were generally less tied to the character (though not always!), whereas these days they are almost always very personalized in some way or another.
Conclusion:
There is no getting around the fact that any kind of rewards are a subjective thing, but as a staff we are dedicated to trying to ensure we give every character a fair shot- all of us have run events (both epic events and regular DM events) for players that are great RPers, but who we have never really interacted with OOC, and that’s fine! I’d say that’s more typical than not, really. We are a relatively small community with a lot of great RP going on everyday, and hopefully this post does more to clarify how the system works and gives some insight into our thought processes as we move forward. There is always a risk that in shedding more light on something like this, that it will lead to greater frustration for those who feel unrecognized, and that of course is not the goal of this at all. We discussed this post off and on for several weeks as a staff, and ultimately decided that we would rather be transparent as possible around things like this, even if it leads to uncomfortable questions or comments directed our way, than to have players worried that they had somehow upset the staff or that the process was intentionally structured to favor certain players or characters. Hopefully this offers some clarity into the process, answers some questions, and updates everyone on the way that things have changed a bit.
But what hasn't changed is that rewards on Thain, whether epic stones, cool items, areas inspired by certain groups, DM plot rewards, etc., are all still based on RP and upholding the golden rule of respect and collaborative storytelling. So with this all having been said, we hope to see everyone ingame soon!
FEAR the Moorhen of Death (tm). Registered Member #26
Joined: 4:31:20 pm GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 3208
"1: In the past, hours played was much more heavily weighted for epics than it is now. Those of you who have played on Thain for 10+ years will recall the days where you were considered a powergamer if you got to level 20 with under 500 hours played on your character. The culture has changed since then, and now, while we do want a character to have been around long enough to feel like a part of the island, we don’t have nearly as high a bar for hours played as there was before."
Aww this makes me sad. The time thing was never a part of the original server concept (back in ye olde days of 2004 at least). The idea was more that epic levels were there for people who had truly become part of the world, almost NPC like I guess?
Mind you, I'm talking about Thain circa 2004-2007. I don't know what happened 10 years ago for that to change. But the OG Thain - so to speak - was never about hours logged. Just about awesome storytelling, respect for others and fun RP.
I'm sad it took a dip and I'm excited about logging back in as soon as I can.
Registered Member #24041
Joined: 4:19:01 am GMT 01/24/17
Posts: 2147
I won't speak for all staff here, but I know I'd personally be pretty uncomfortable telling someone "this is what I/we don't like about your RP", which is what that ultimately comes down to. As folks who have messaged me 1:1 know, I'm happy to workshop ideas or give limited feedback on concepts, but at the end of the day, Thain is what you make it, and not everyone wants the same thing out of it. I'm always happy to tell people what my favorite thing about their character(s) is, to celebrate some cool scene they ran or were part of, or encourage them to take advantage of the many different systems we have in place to help with RP (*Gestures vaguely to the half-dozen or so guides I've written/videos I've made about various systems*), but I'll reiterate what I said at the beginning of the original post: There isn't one set path to follow, things that fit one character may not fit another, and rewards come in many types, including things like fun and community, which aren't really measurable, and certainly not things that only staff can create.
! Registered Member #20
Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 7094
Rafa wrote ...
Can players receive feedback on where we can improve?
Maybe individually! There's no universal staff viewpoint on any particular player or character. Everyone is going to have their own thoughts.
I'm not going to say I wouldn't ever give feedback if asked, but I'd worry about it turning into people campaigning for an epic level, or trying to change their RP too much to please DMs. I can say what I think might be cool for a character, but ultimately your character is your creative voice, not ours. I think the right mindset for improvement is "How can I bring my vision across better?" rather than "How can I better please the DMs?"
One thing I always recommend is looking at the RP of others you respect, and see what you can learn. I think most every experienced writer has at least one lesson to learn. Don't do the exact thing or make the exact character you see someone else making (it's really obvious if you just steal someone's schtick), but do try to see what other players have to teach. Attending player events can be a great way to do this.
Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
I recall, back in the day, there were a few players who were obsessed with getting epic'd, and ruined their own enjoyment of the game in the pursuit. And sometimes for others around them. If you aren't having fun, I don't think anything else would work.
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FAQ on Epic Levels
