Registered Member #1009
Joined: 7:04:13 am GMT 03/26/07
Posts: 539
The Patch Notes Link: -Clickedy-
[quote]
6.50Cleric updatesNote: Since these changes are extensive, if you have an existing cleric and want to change your domains, send me a Discord message with the character name and the domains you want. I will do this once per existing PC!
Implosion: No longer a base level 9 Cleric spell, now available exclusively through the destruction domain.
New Level 9 spell: Divine Intervention: Makes the target invulnerable for 12 seconds. Cannot be crafted into items, and has a per-target cooldown of 2 minutes.
New level 8 spell: Consecrate: Good creatures in the target area receive a 20% concealment bonus and +2 Dodge AC. Unfriendly evil creatures suffer 2 divine damage per round. Lasts 10 rounds, colossal area.
New level 8 spell: Desecrate: Evil creatures in the target area receive a 20% concealment bonus and +2 Dodge AC. Unfriendly good creatures suffer 2 divine damage per round. Lasts 10 rounds, colossal area.
Updated domain spell lists:Air - Gedlee’s Electric Loop (2), Call Lightning (4), <strike>Chain Lightning (6)</strike>, Storm of Vengeance (7).
[b]Animal[/b] - Cat’s Grace (2), True Seeing (3), Polymorph Self (5), Elemental Swarm (9)
[b]Death[/b] - Negative Energy Burst (3), Energy Drain (7), Horrid Wilting (9)
[b]Destruction[/b] - Crumble (4), Bombardment (8), Implosion (9)
[b]Earth[/b] - Stoneskin (4), Flesh to Stone (7), Stonehold (9)
[b]Evil[/b] - Desecrate (6), Greater Planar Binding (8)
[b]Fire[/b] - Flame Strike (3), Firebrand (7), Inc Cloud (8)
[b]Good[/b] - Consecrate (6), Greater Planar Binding (8)
[b]Knowledge[/b] - New Knowledge domain power, scries the current area for 2 minutes, allowing you to hear all that is said regardless of distance. Usable 1/day.
[b]Magic[/b] - Magic Missile (1), Melf’s Acid Arrow (2), Negative Energy Burst (3), Stoneskin (4), Ice Storm (5)
[b]Plant[/b] - Entangle (1), Barkskin (2), Vine Mine (5), Creeping Doom (7), Nature’s Balance (9)
[b]Protection[/b] - Stoneskin (5), Lesser Spell Mantle (6), Mind Blank (9)
[b]Strength[/b] - Divine Power (3), Stoneskin (5), Greater Bull’s Strength (9)
[b]Sun[/b] - Searing Light (2), Hammer of the Gods (3), Sunburst (6)
[b]Water[/b] - Ice Storm (4), Cone of Cold (6)
(General design goals here are to strengthen Cleric’s support role and make them a little bit less like tanky turrets. Also intended to differentiate Clerics of different domains more, and alter playstyle based on the domains chosen.)
[/quote1581750567]
Given the drastic changes to clerics I feel it is important to have a place to discuss it. I know there are some who are generally unaffected by these changes. For others it is obvious that these changes can significantly affect how someone might see the value in their domains as well as their ability to play content. Though I have asked some in game, I was curious how others felt about the change.
I will first say that there are many hours given by the people who work on these changes, and I am grateful for every moment they spend trying to make Thain a better world. I won't say every change is something I think is for the better or for the worse, like all things it affects each of us differently and we are all with our own opinions on it. Below is my opinion on the changes.
For me personally these changes have really diminished the idea that being a non healer caster is an effective option for a cleric and instead we are forced to tank targets so they stand in spells. I don't feel like clerics had a lot of high level ranged aoe instant damage spells and losing chain lighting AND Implosion further diminishes the options while not really offering competitive alternatives. Some of the added spells like Incidiary wall feel like the changes are pushing more for relying on keeping enemies in the damage zone instead.
The single most important spell to me is implosion. For me it has helped to discouraged reckless attempts at instigating PVP, it aids in being able to clear mobs when groups were getting overwhelmed, and it served as a catch all in those moments where dealing 80 damage from a level 9 spell wasn't going to get me out of the mess.
Another for me is the removal of Chain Lighting, for the specific of the fact that IT is the top shelf spell for casters right now. Proper equipment and focus and one can dish out 180 damage reflex save DC 35+ at long range and tag everyone else for 90. I personally would like to see it restored in place of the level 7 SoV.
The loss of Energy Buffer for ALL domains that once had it (Earth, Fire, Protection) means you can remove at most 30 damage when you are struck as there are currently only a handful of items that come buffed to resist the electrical damage. However this decision confuses me more than anything so I would welcome the input for why it was pulled. Another change to Protection that I wasn't sure why it was done is minor Globe of Invulnerability being replaced by lesser spell mantle. Lot of stuff I don't see so I am curious.
The spell Horrid Wilting, which was added to the Death Domain, is a competitive alternative to chain lightning and Delayed Blast Fireball with the proper ring. Expect damage in the 120 region. It is also a fort save so evasion and such have no benefit against it. The Damage Leveld8 is up to 25d8 but can't be maximized or empowered by a ring if cast from a scroll so the benefit of the extra 5 is minimal even with the makers charm. However, I don't see this as a supporting cause for the removal of Chain lightning but instead a value adding spell for Death Domain. The Domain ability is in need of an overhaul in my opinion but the spells do a really good job of offsetting what is essentially a useless ability. Death Domain did get a big power jump in comparison to how it was functioning before. Though Energy Drain needs to be empowered via the feat and not the ring to benefit the level drain values as the ring only boosts negative damage. I am aware that necromancy often doesn't play well against well prepared players and against a lot of current end game enemies. This is one spell that does functionally bypass that issue.
I do understand that one of the goals was to make domains more unique and I do believe THAT was done well, even as I feel that some domains suffered for it and others gained greatly for it. The Knowledge domain power seems good on paper in my mind, but in game honestly seems to just encourage a player to drop a level and pick up cleric for spying and then revert when done. I personally haven't yet found a situation where I have a use for it but in talking with others there feels a common thought that it is better for a SD Rogue Spy who wants to listen in on people talking in the CR downstairs than a cleric who is far less likely to be sneaking around. An added note: There is a one use item in game that allows you to use the ability (at this time Divine knowledge isn't charging and so I have been unable to test it specifically, however having set 2 min timers during Rp at the CR has shown to me that this ability has mixed results though it does definitely give a uniqueness to knowledge) Some domains were completely changed such as destruction and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some who swap air for destruction or death.
With Jiztroyir I have long tried to focus on the Necromancy aspect of Cleric but constantly found that either the enemy was immune to death spells, level drain, negative damage or a combination of any 3 OR had some quick means to undo the added effects of the spell. Those both assumed that the creature lived long enough for the effects to matter, and since Bosses are often the only thing that one might generally be inclined to try and reduce to make an easier fight they end up just not being worth while in the spell slot.
I get that Clerics aren't intended to nuke as well as wizards/sorcs but I feel that almost none of the level 7-9 spells really compare well to the ability to Maximize and Ring empower spell a spell and dish out 180 damage in a single shot from a single spell. That number assumes you have middling reflex saves and don't have improved evasion. But I do feel that some of the changes have drawn away from the concept of casting on the move and instead standing there and casting everything at your feet so your enemies run up to you and then dies. Obviously this doesn't really work well against SD (who can jump your immobile spells) and ranged attackers who can comfortably turn you into a pin cushion far away from your immobile spells.
So what thoughts do you have about these changes?
[b]TL;DR[/b] New spells are awesome, losing implosion neuters the Cleric overall. I like that some domains got a much needed touch up, and others kinda went the other direction. I think that chain lighting getting dropped from Air or that Energy Buffer being removed from all 3 of the domains hurts clerics who are trying to be more support back line casters. I think overall it now feels like you have to be tanking in the combat in order for your spells to be effective as there are few effective longer range high level spells for hard hitting damage.
[b]((as I become more aware of things, some of these opinions may change and I will be sure to add notes in bold. I encourage healthy discourse no matter the subject!|))[/b]
Registered Member #25300
Joined: 6:37:11 am GMT 06/04/19
Posts: 153
I built Dele around Sun and Healing Domains so I am pretty unaffected and more inclined to quietly grumble about the earlier shortened duration of greater sanctuary which I now don't use because I find for me its just too short a time, can't even get across one screen as it is now. The two new spells are I think pretty cool- consecrate and divine intervention, again I would quietly "Hmm" at the 12 seconds. The knowledge domain doesn't attract me. In two minutes some players might get out Hello and How are you? I 'd vote for a longer duration.
As somebody who has played both clerics and mages (and somebody who understands and appreciates the finer mechanics of both classes), I would like to share my own thoughts as well. I will address each change individually.
Implosion: No longer a base level 9 Cleric spell, now available exclusively through the destruction domain.
Taking implosion away from all domains save destruction is a bit drastic. It is a very useful spell, and it is effectively the only mass-death spell available to clerics. Mages retain both weird and wail of the banshee, after all. Rather than limiting implosion to a specific domain, why not change the spell mechanic instead? Implosion is overpowered not because it clears mobs, but because it bypasses death immunity. Make it so that it no longer does and you have a spell almost on par with weird and wail of the banshee. For added flair, because implosion has such a small area of effect, make it so that even a successful save vs death has some manner of temporary deterimental effect like slow for 2 rounds (the PC is disoriented/staggered because they got nearly pulled into the Void).
Air - Geedle's Electric Loop (2), Call Lightning (4), Storm of Vengeance (7)
I think I understand the rationale behind the decision to take out chain lightning. Yes, mages can cast it. Yes, they can do 200+ damage that way. Yes, it is disappointing that clerics no longer can. But look at it from this perspective: whenever a mage shoots off a spell, be it a magic missile or maximised chain lightning, the mage is exposed. The generic wizard/sorceror has half the HP of a cleric, and they have no AC to rely upon. A cleric with non-magical items can boost their AC to 37. That number rises to 44 if you add barkskin and boots with a dodge bonus to the build. Finally, because clerics also have access to divine shield, even a standard 12-14 charisma cleric can potentially boost their AC by an additional 7-8 points, for a maximum of 52 AC. Hitting these numbers is, I admit, an exception to the run-of-the-mill cleric build. Even so, with an AC of 40+, the cleric can stand in the middle of a warzone and dish out massive damage without fear of being overpowered. I imagine this is why chain lightning was removed.
As a compromise, perhaps chain lightning could be reintroduced to the domain, but as a level 7 rather than a level 6 spell. This way, it cannot be maximised.
Change the mechanics of implosion and make it available to all clerics. Give the domain earthquake as a level 6 spell. Even when maximised its damage is not significant enough to warrant concern for balance.
Earth - Stoneskin (4), Flesh to Stone (7), Stonehold (9)
I like these changes, but bumping stonehold from druid level 6 to cleric level 9 is a bit brutal. Rather, make it level 8 so it can be extended. It is also unfair if stonehold has to compete for slots with such spells as implosion, gate, storm of vengeance and other amazing level 9 cleric spells.
Evil - Desecrate (6), Greater Planar Binding (8)
I really like these changes. Desecrate as level 6 is a major boon, and greater planar binding summons can become amazing when buffed by a cleric.
Fire - Flame Strike (3), Firebrand (7), Inc Cloud (8)
I quite like these changes. I like that firebrand is not level 6 so that it can be maximised. Incendiary cloud is a very nice addition.
Good - Consecrate (6), Greater Planar Binding (8)
See comments about changes to evil domain.
Knowledge - New Knowledge domain power, scries the current area for 2 minutes, allowing you to hear all that is said regardless of distance. Usable 1/day.
Amazing change. So much RP potential. But I agree with Kat that 2 minutes is truly an insignificant duration. When I sit at the Crossroads fire, it occasionally takes people two minutes to emote a nod. Make it last 1 turn per level or per two levels of cleric.
Very nice changes, but GBS as a level 9 spell is brutal. GBS raises strength by 3-9 points. Empowered strength (a level 4 spell slot) raises strength by 2-7 points. The margin between the two is not that great in terms of bonuses, but it is great indeed in terms of spell slot level.
Sun - Searing Light (2), Hammer of the Gods (3), Sunburst (6)
Registered Member #24041
Joined: 4:19:01 am GMT 01/24/17
Posts: 2147
"...losing implosion neuters the Cleric overall..."
"Taking implosion away from all domains save destruction is a bit drastic."
I disagree. Implosion is still there if you really want it, but if you're a healer-cleric, or even a necromancy cleric, why do you need to be able to summon a void of death on command? Wizards/sorcs have the "I'm really good at magic" line to fall back on, but clerics, whose spells are supposed to be gifted by a divine entity, it's always felt weird, like "check it out, Pelor, the god of healing and the sun, gave me the ability to crush my enemies to death in a black hole" All hail Pelor!.
Again, if you want implosion, it's still there to take. But I may be in the minority here, as I find instant death spells in general kind of meh.
Knowledge domain, I tend to think a longer duration is probably fine, yeah. Minute/cleric level feels pretty solid.
Minor globe of invuln <<<< lesser spell mantle, and I'm all for that change. Minor globe was pretty useless against anything but stuff like web, and freedom of movement has already got you covered there. Spell mantles are much more flexible.
I don't think clerics have to be the "stand in one place" type casters, although I think they certainly can be. The one I'm making now certainly won't be though. But I do like that the changes encourage you to make a choice about what kind of cleric you want to play and generally giving you a buff to that playstyle, rather than having a cleric who can do pretty much anything all of the time, but only 90% as well as you could if you specialized. It feels a bit like choosing your wizard schools now, and I think that's valuable RP-wise.
Wizards/sorcs have the "I'm really good at magic" line to fall back on, but clerics, whose spells are supposed to be gifted by a divine entity, it's always felt weird, like "check it out, Pelor, the god of healing and the sun, gave me the ability to crush my enemies to death in a black hole" All hail Pelor!
This is an excellent analogy. Clerics are not wizards/sorcerers, or, more to the point, the Weave is not the Power. When wizards/sorcerers channel the Weave, they tap into all of the Weave (unless they are specialist wizards). Clerics, at least conceptually, are not supposed to draw power from a ubiquitous well of energy; the cleric's power is granted to them by a specific deity with a specific divine portfolio. Andarus (Pelor? Really? Get outta here!) opening holes to the Void would be totally unrealistic.
Registered Member #24916
Joined: 2:58:00 pm GMT 01/23/19
Posts: 604
How about making it a reward spell that has to be unlocked? If a character plays well within their diety's portfolio, it is granted by their god or goddess as a gift, be it for destruction or protection. Their spells are blessings, after all.
Actual point aside, Sunites should totally get it as a spell-like ability, just for the "AAAAHH!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!" moments. *nodnods*
Forum Admin Registered Member #623
Joined: 6:43:48 am GMT 10/01/05
Posts: 4996
The problem with locking spells behind rewards is that relies upon players being in a timezone that is both covered by DMs and playing at an activity level that gets noticed. DMs are humans and bound by mortal things like time and energy. This means that any system that requires a DM to grant a reward will always have some folks falling through the cracks.
I think making implosion destruction only was a good change. You can still access it, but it needs to be a conscious choice in your build. I think the changes overall make domain a much more important choice than before, as it now really determines key spells in your list.
In all my years on Thain, I have heard two things said over and over again.
"Nobody will ever tell you how to play your character."
Or
"Thain believes it is up to you to play any class, your way. Nobody will ever tell you that you are playing your class, wrong."
I love the work put into the class, it is no mystery that cleric has always been my favourite class. But changes this drastic can't help me feel anything but being told "This is how you are supposed to play this class."
I think having an npc to talk too so you voluntarily took the change would have been better.
Again, great to see wok done in a class I love. But I disagree with allot of the changes. And if power is an issue, then elemental rings should not work on maximized spells, for any class.
I'll find a way to accept these changes, and find a means to fix my characters who were affected.
Registered Member #1320
Joined: 10:38:49 pm GMT 06/23/08
Posts: 1086
Payne wrote ...
In all my years on Thain, I have heard two things said over and over again.
"Nobody will ever tell you how to play your character."
Or
"Thain believes it is up to you to play any class, your way. Nobody will ever tell you that you are playing your class, wrong."
I love the work put into the class, it is no mystery that cleric has always been my favourite class. But changes this drastic can't help me feel anything but being told "This is how you are supposed to play this class."
I think having an npc to talk too so you voluntarily took the change would have been better.
Again, great to see wok done in a class I love. But I disagree with allot of the changes. And if power is an issue, then elemental rings should not work on maximized spells, for any class.
I'll find a way to accept these changes, and find a means to fix my characters who were affected.
I just really dislike the fact that I have too.
100% This. And you may not see much of Dace from here on out. I don't know yet.
Registered Member #1145
Joined: 8:28:45 pm GMT 08/30/07
Posts: 823
Payne wrote ...
In all my years on Thain, I have heard two things said over and over again.
"Nobody will ever tell you how to play your character."
Or
"Thain believes it is up to you to play any class, your way. Nobody will ever tell you that you are playing your class, wrong."
I love the work put into the class, it is no mystery that cleric has always been my favourite class. But changes this drastic can't help me feel anything but being told "This is how you are supposed to play this class."
I think having an npc to talk too so you voluntarily took the change would have been better.
Again, great to see wok done in a class I love. But I disagree with allot of the changes. And if power is an issue, then elemental rings should not work on maximized spells, for any class.
I'll find a way to accept these changes, and find a means to fix my characters who were affected.
I just really dislike the fact that I have too.
A whole lot of what Payne said.
Unlike Payne, I'm not willing to accept the changes to clerics. So, assuming the changes are permanent, I have three characters I will likely never play again.
I'm unhappy about the changes themselves, but I'm not angry about them. What I'm angry about is the way the changes were implemented. This was a major overhaul to a popular class, and there was zero discussion about it on the forums before it was put into effect. This thread should have been started before the changes happened, and it should have been started by staff.
It's like the staff consider the player base to be nothing more than peasants, and it doesn't matter what the peasants think.: "We're taking away your bread and butter, and if you don't like it, too bad".
I'm not saying that's actually the way it is, I'm just saying that's the way it feels. YMMV
[ The Island of Thain ]
Discussion: Cleric Changes 2/11/20
