Randomly decided to check in after years and see talk of Doordie and Amel. Lots of fun memories! Arguably my first long time character, Narwyn, ended up closely aligned with Amel as his protege.
Doordie was one of the best RP's I ever played with. His stories, with his character Amel, were amazing. Rich, deep, complex. I hope Doordie is doing well! You have a really great Uncle!
Hundbert Registered Member #293
Joined: 1:22:43 am GMT 10/06/04
Posts: 3124
Dogbert wrote ...
Jandari wrote ...
What exactly is dirge?
Dirge is a max level Bard spell that creates an aura around your character. The aura drains 2 strength/dexterity from all affected enemies each round on failed Fortitude save, stacking. If they succeed their save, the negatives are removed and the stacking begins again on the next failed save. Based on the previous discussion, you can likely see why it's a powerful and useful "tanking" spell!
Squawk! Registered Member #648
Joined: 1:50:32 am GMT 11/20/05
Posts: 1484
This is good stuff. I have noticed that I can get the attacker to focus on me by using Taunt skill. Does anyone know if this a feature of the skill, due to the attack of opportunity, or due to the discipline check ?
Hundbert Registered Member #293
Joined: 1:22:43 am GMT 10/06/04
Posts: 3124
scratch_flannigan wrote ...
This is good stuff. I have noticed that I can get the attacker to focus on me by using Taunt skill. Does anyone know if this a feature of the skill, due to the attack of opportunity, or due to the discipline check ?
The skill itself does not change the target's focus. If you draw an attack of opportunity while moving in to Taunt, that may, and as far as the opposed check (actually Concentration, for Taunt, not Discipline) I actually don't know.
Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
I'll add a little bit about how the standard combat scripts handle Aggro.
Short answer: They Don't.
That's a big simplification -- of course mobs will aggro on us, but they don't manage an Aggro System; say, the way most MMO's do.
There's only two rules I'm aware of for who an NPC chooses to attack. Closest hostile, and last attacker. Combat gets started by closest hostile. When anyone intrudes into detection range and is detected, the AI tests for faction relations, and if hostile, starts combat with that target. Afterwards, the last attacker, under certain circumstances, such as not while the mob is still executing a command or attack, will be the next target, or take the place of the current target.
There is not a list of everyone in attack range which the AI maintains with a hostility level or threat value being recorded for them, which can be enhanced by being hit by them, or tanking skills, or reduced by certain actions, or just decay over time, and so forth. NWN's AI is more basic than that; it only knows the current target, the closest hostile, and the last attacker.
There were some custom AI's which tried to do some of this. I recall quite a bit about Jasperre's AI, which had a lot better handling of when a mob would redirect its attack, but still didn't have a full MMO-style aggro system.
Registered Member #23933
Joined: 6:13:12 pm GMT 05/15/15
Posts: 480
Jasperre's was indeed a great overhaul, it made the hardcore OC actually hardcore!
From my time playing, if there's a low AC and high AC character, both in melee, the mobs often switch to the low AC character. If you both engage within the same timeframe it's much more likely the low AC character aggros.
Also, entering Parry Mode with a decent investment in parry drops aggro really well if there's a secondary target for the mob to attack.
EDIT: This is all super anecdotal by the way. Amber's post above is a great explanation. I think there's a lot of ways to drop aggro, but next to none to gain it.
Registered Member #279
Joined: 4:17:59 pm GMT 09/25/04
Posts: 5460
Jasperre's had a lot of flexibility if a builder was willing to learn it. For example, you could create roles in an NPC team, and then create a leader to coordinate them. So players could run into a case where some of the mobs would engage the front line of players and others would try to get back behind and kill the support/buffers/healers. In its basic configurations, it had better target selection rules (though still not an aggro system) and better spell/attack selection rules.
IMO, an MMO-aggro system has serious drawbacks and definitely underplays the strengths of an AI group. However, it has the benefits of being obvious and understandable to poorly coordinated and uncommunicative pick-up groups of players, and having the (dubious) merit of reinforcing the validity of trinity roles.
NWN also strives to not be too strong at small group tactics, for the same reasons. For the OC, it wasn't necessary to use clever situational tactics for difficulty, that was well-controlled byt he difficulty slider and custom scripting for specific encounters. And the small group short-campaign multiplayer they anticipated would almost always have a DM in it. Enter the PW's, and all that's out the door, and the weakness of the AI and its simple target selection rules shows more.
Registered Member #633
Joined: 3:59:33 pm GMT 10/24/05
Posts: 1173
Just food for thought: for while I find the discussion of mechanics and limitations of AI somewhat interesting, I think there's a point or two being overlooked in the attempt to make what seems like an argument like "Yes, I get to PWN everything because Tank".
If that's your point, then don't travel with spellcasters, I would think.
I may be simplifying the argument to too fine a point, and if I am, please forgive me. (/sarcasm for effect warning on: not directed at any individual)
For while the Tank may be mightily upset that s/he doesn't get to PWN everything in creation because that skinny bastard with a pointy hat has killed all the enemies before you can say "+5 Bastard Sword with 2d6 fire-damage-with-improved-crit-and-improved-ki-damage", already, I would like to point out that it's quite the same for spellcasters who don't get a chance to do their thing because the tank or two at the front basically nuked everything with a load of crit hits and outrageous damage, or because the rogue in your party ranges far ahead, sneak attacks all your foes before you get there, or your cleric just destroyed all the undead with a turn attempt.
I would think the goal is the same: survival in a co-operative environment, achieving a definitive goal; are the means by which it is achieved really that important? Doesn't everyone get a chance to have their bit of fun?
I understand; there are players who have taken great pride in building characters that can solo (most) every area of Thain and emerge with nary a scratch for it, and I understand that it takes a great deal of forethought, and planning, and skill to figure out all the charts, and decide on which feats to take when, and how many points to devote to this or that skill, and if playing the game that way -- gaming systems -- makes you happy (like being an accountant), then go for your's. I'm not criticizing because "respect all play stylezzz".
I'll just privately snicker.
I'm sure others are doing the same to me for my more parochial views on what Role Playing actually means.
A second point to make about AoE spells is that only a few seem to fall in for criticism, particularly 'tentacles (and to a lesser extent, maybe Incendiary cloud, blade barrier), and I would surmise this is because it's effect is immediately OBVIOUS.
There are other AoE spells where the effect is less so and better yet, which are actually more effective when used in tandem with a second spellcaster, for example: one caster lets loose a Mind Fog, and the second follows up with a Confusion as enemies charge through the fog. When the effect is more subtle, the complaint, I reckon, disappears.
(I also have a number of tricks using co-operative, not-immediately-deadly AoE tricks that come from experience with them, and I'm certain there's an enterprising soul who will now apply the same gusto they do to figuring out how to game AC and AB rulez to figuring out how to create the perfect AoE Master of All, in turn pissing someone else off).
However, the point of an AoE spells is to, specifically, handle mobs at a distance, considering the people who use them -- wizards, sorcerers, bards, clerics and druids -- are not as proficient in combat as sword-swinging monkeys are , and guess what? THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE, as this is not their role (which is why, I guess, players who RP archers don't seem to have the same complaints as do melee-monsters; they, in part, I would think, chose to play archer-based characters in an effort to avoid melee as much as possible).
I'm also sure someone is going to mention "melee mages" and "battle clerics" in response, and really, that's just getting into the weeds of philosophy; "The System" allows for certain things to happen or to be possible, but the SPIRIT of the game doesn't always match the system (and "spirit" is always subjective), and The System is incapable of evolving in reaction to better players/mechanical wizards.
Third point, I see AoE spells as part of a more "holistic" approach to combat. If AoE spells could be given a RL counterpart, I would point to mines on the battlefield. The purpose(s) of a mine is to deny access to or through a certain area to an enemy; to slow his progress; to direct his movements in a way that is favorable to you, and if that happens to do damage as well, so much the better. The problem we have here is that the AI is rather primitive, and in other games where an enemy might recognize a potential hazard/threat and react accordingly, NWN can't. Hence, grief over the "Gandalf Junior just killed all my Bagnorn with his evil, black, wavy vines, and this hurts my feelz" phenomenon.
Registered Member #396
Joined: 5:35:42 am GMT 01/10/05
Posts: 519
The ideas discussed in this thread all seem to be mechanics to exploit to properly play a tank role as defined in the standard MMO style party trinity (Tank/DPS/Healer) as Amber referenced. In such a case, the tank's role isn't to "pwn" everything. The tank's job is to keep everything focused on shooting/stabbing/blasting him/her while the DPS (in your case the classic spellcaster archetype) can do their thing with out worrying about getting punched in the face as they read from their spell book.
If anything the suggestions would seem to help promote more cooperative play.
[ The Island of Thain ]
"Threat" or "Aggro" in NwN
