Randomly decided to check in after years and see talk of Doordie and Amel. Lots of fun memories! Arguably my first long time character, Narwyn, ended up closely aligned with Amel as his protege.
Doordie was one of the best RP's I ever played with. His stories, with his character Amel, were amazing. Rich, deep, complex. I hope Doordie is doing well! You have a really great Uncle!
Registered Member #636
Joined: 1:42:07 am GMT 10/26/05
Posts: 505
In light of this remark
wrote ... We're all for boosting certain class abilities, particularly where it helps people RP. That's why we increased the number of shifter shapes, added new bardsongs, and it's why we're buffing summons. It's much more difficult to find a suitable change for the melee oriented classes, however. Casters get shapechanging and shiny VFX and all other kinds of handy RP toolboxes and tricks, but the melee-oriented classes get stuff like Power Attack, which is difficult to create any real roleplay around. If people have suggestions for buffing melee classes or making their abilities more interesting to RP with, feel free to post or PM them to me.
I wanted to not only open up discussion of this, but also point out a few things about Fighters in general, that seem to be "left out" in the remark above.
That is, Fighters have a HUUUUUUUUUUGGGEEEE amount of different options and play styles!
Why is this?
Fighters have access to many different types of Weapons (with differing effects) - that are alot like the access that spellcasters have to...spells, really.
Weapons do different damage, have different damage types, and different crit ranges. Some are good for close combat, others for Range.
Fighters also have access to all Amor types and Shields. This is also alot like Spellcaster spells, isn't it.
As for different styles of play, they are not only present, but are also plentiful.
Go Dex, be a Dual Wielder. Go Strength, use a Two-Hander. Be a Jack-of-all-trades and use a sword and board. Or create an all-rounder, that can do all of the above fighting styles. Make a Thrower. Make an Archer.
The Fighter is very versitile, because of the large amount of Feats that it gets. It can afford to not only WF in multiple weapons, but also to WS in them as well, improve the Critical range of said weapon(s) and still have Feats for other things - like Knockdown, Disarm, Called Shot, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, and let us not forget Expertise and Improved Expertise.
One can add in some Dodge, some Spring Attack, etc!
In fact, the Fighter has so many options at its disposal, that one is hard pressed to decide on which route to go!
On Thain, one can easily make a Fighter that is very rugged and viable. Iron Will feat will be a must - pump up those saves! A bit of Int and drop some points cross-class in Spellcraft (one can also multi-class to get better benefits, but I am speaking strickly Fighter here). Resist Energy has some very good effects, as well. Blind Fighting is a very useful feat, and there are many others that come into consideration here, as well.
So, in light of this, post some styles, observations, critiques, lamentations, etc! This is about melee - so post away!
Registered Member #800
Joined: 2:26:38 am GMT 06/19/06
Posts: 2065
Well, mechanicly fighters are versatile, I think most fearts and cool stuff is only shifting ac or damage number up or down, still cool to have when headbutting a giant, but not much to base stories or RP around
Well, for RP all classes have the most versatile cool feature existing: A player! That can invent personality, background and all On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with builders, players and DMs to see if we can think up even more things to help base RP around/support RP with
Registered Member #796
Joined: 5:25:55 pm GMT 06/12/06
Posts: 396
As my main character is a fighter/WM, i would just like to point out i only feel he is weak in 2 areas...one of them is natural to a fighter...
1) low will saves...i considered this a problem at first, and hated running from Krenshrars..dieing from one spell/effect ie Bodaks...
but once i realised theres plenty of items out there to increase will saves and feats....sure his will save is still low, but he can increase it and its no longer a problem that he always runs or dies easily....so i'm now happy with that point.
2) his other weakness is not being able to damage certain creatures due to only having a +2 weapon...compared to others who can have +5
This did annoy me because nearly every base class can get past the +3 alone ...with no problem...only barb/ftr can't unless they choose a weapon that is available in game as +3......
however i've now realised that it adds to the roleplay as i need to find a party that can help me get past the creatures that i can't damage.
They are the only two things i had a problem with for a fighter over other classes.
except bringing in more powerful weapons/items i dont see how you can bring melee up to the all powerful mage/cleric.....but that brings more problems about cause anyone with UMD also gets those new weapons/items and makes them even more powerful...and like Squid said makes MPC's easier and therefore the whole world easier.
So my answer to the problem is this...give more variety of weapons, especially more with VFX like the dreugar battleaxe, the thayan burning sword etc. I like weapons with VFX (make em expensive too, if someone is walking round with a weapon with VFX i feel it makes them look powerful), but they are in short supply, i find anyhow...also bring in more variety's like some weapons are good against certain creatures...ie the shin splitter battleaxe is good against Giants.
This allows more roleplay based on your weapon and the enemy your hunting.
other than that i dont see a way of making the base melee class better and powerful like the mage without spoiling the low magic world...but lets face it this is a fantasy world where the mage is supposed to be all powerful at high levels...the feats is the fighters strongpoint...roleplay to your strengths who cares if a pesky shamen can kill 20 creatures with one spell, i much prefer to see a crazed axe weilding dwarf kill 20 creatures
so there you go.....bring in more vareity or weapons, armour, shield and helms....they dont have to be more powerful, just more vareity...this gives more roleplay options for the melee class
Registered Member #636
Joined: 1:42:07 am GMT 10/26/05
Posts: 505
Oh, I can Tailor a Fighter to be a Swashbuckler (wears light or no armor, and is Dexed based), to be a Woodsman (Hide Armor, Greataxe, etc). A Hunter (with both a knife for skinning prey and a Bow from bringing it down), or perhaps a Veteran Mercanary (Chainarmor, etc and various weapons and shields), to a Shining Armored Captain, for example. Or a Marshall. Or whatever one so chooses.
Now note this is just the Figher. Melee Classes also include Rangers, Paladins, and Barbarians. Yet again more options...
You want a Melee character that is different? Go with a build that uses Throwing Axes and lays down Traps. All too often builds are just that - too stereotyped. Who says that a Melee based class MUST engage the enemy in hand-to-hand?
How about a Dart based melee build? Or perhaps a Sling? Crossbow, for example?
Go Ranger and use a Crossbow.
I mean, there are really many, many options out there, if one puts a few thoughts into them. I see them all the time on Thain.
How about the Spartains? That is a novel idea.
If the Staff is looking for ideas on what they can offer to Melee based classes without including haks, then they need to think outside the box.
How about weapons with some interesting abilities on them, weapons that are not used often? Abilites do not have to be pluses, after all. They can be other things.
NWN has a great way of doing these types of things through SCRIPTING.
This has already been done for the Paladin and the Ranger, for example. Ranger gets a nifty boost to Blood Thirst, and Paladins of course have their Holy Sword and access to the Divine feats.
Barbarians get their Rage.
Things like this can also be scripted onto weapons. Perhaps a unique ability that adds a temporary effect to an ability, or perhaps to the weapon itself.
Like a Spear of the Shadows, for example. Perhaps it gives a limited ability to cast Shadowshield on oneself, that has a limited duration.
Things like this. Thinking outside of the box.
Perhaps a Whip of Impairment, that can put the effect of Bigby's Imposing Hand on an opponent, if a certain DC save is not made.
How about a Handaxe of the Stalward Heart - it can cast lesser Mind Blank on the user limited times a day, for a limited duration?
Or how about a Halberd of Angry Blows - it can cast a temporary GMW on itself x times a day.
Or perhaps a Katana of Elemental Spirit - it can cast Flameweapon on itself, but one can choose what type of elemental damage it should be - Cold, Fire, Acid, Lightning, Sonic, for example.
Thus, even if the weapon itself does not have massive pluses, it is still very useful in lots of situations.
[ Edited 10:38:13 AM 07/21/07 ]
! Registered Member #20
Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 7124
My issue with the gameplay of fighters in NWN has never been a lack of build options. There are all kinds of ways you can build and tweak the numbers and feats to vary your fighter's style a little bit. However, all that build-tweaking amounts to very little in terms of gameplay change. As a player, one of the things I have fun with is having to make interesting decisions in combat.
Put it this way - when I'm playing a caster, I'm constantly finding new ways to tweak my spell selection such that my entire gameplay is different. Should I spend most of my slots on buffing the melee guys to stronger effectiveness? Should I play an enchanter and blast the monsters with AoE mes effects? Once the battle itself starts, I get to make all kinds of interesting little decisions and plays, like trying to get in close enough to the melee to cast heals without triggering AoOs, or choosing the right location for an AoE spell. Rogues are also chock full of these little mini-games, such as finding the proper backstab position without drawing too much hurt onto yourself.
With a melee character, most of those interesting choices and minigames go away. You click on a monster, maybe spam a combat feat, and that's it. Of course, there are a few places where the decisions get more interesting (like healing and I guess target choice sometimes), but the basic gameplay of a fighter rarely requires much from the player.
From a roleplaying standpoint, the problem with most fighter abilities is that they only affect the numbers on the character sheet. It's easy to imagine spells like Dominate Person or Greater Planar Binding creating or expanding on any number of different storylines or plots. Meanwhile, a Power Attack will always be a Power Attack. You can emote making more powerful strikes or even roleplay around learning a combat feat, but that's the extent of it. Combat feats simply don't have the storyline potential that many spells do.
That's not to say you can't have an interesting character who is also a fighter. It's just saying that a fighter does not get nearly as much help from his class abilities as others do.
In short, I would like to see fighters in NWN become more interesting, in both RP and combat. This isn't a Staff opinion or a building promise, it's just my view. It's why I don't play fighters much myself.
TPK Insurance Specialist, call now for our low, low rates! 1-800-U KILL ME Registered Member #552
Joined: 4:34:52 am GMT 06/13/05
Posts: 2608
The thing is these are all mostly just ways of dressing up what a fighter does in combat. I can't really think of a way that these can be used to add to RP...
Hmm... how about a Swashbuckler's rapier? -5 Damage, +3 AC (Dodge), +5 Parry, +5 Taunt? That could be great fun for some Dex build, sitting back in Expertise mode, deflecting all incoming blows and trying to give his opponent an embolism instead.
Registered Member #796
Joined: 5:25:55 pm GMT 06/12/06
Posts: 396
Well thats the reason i prefer playing fighters Squid...in the heat of combat i like to just point and clik...not micromanage my spells etc.
thats why i'm crap at RTS games like Warcraft...i can't micro-manage, when theres lots going on!
which is why i suggest more vareitys of weapons and other items...so you just choose the most appropiate items based on the enemies your fighting, and yet still only point and click..but you have more roleplay options
I dont want to go into a fight worry about clicking the right quickslot at the right time...i can't mirco-manage, i just panic and die because of it
Casters and especially rogues are more fun and have more opportunities in combat situations in my experience. Positioning for sneak attacks, especially with a ranged weapon, is something I found much more fun than it sounds. It can be a real challenge.
Fighters, well, doesn't get to have that much fun. However, fighters can usually take on a leader role in a party. The man up front in full armor makes a natural leader figure. Combat with Marcus is a simple point and click experience, combined with trying to keep the monsters targeting him instead of some unarmored caster or archer. I often try to take on a role in the party that allows me to do something beyond just point and click, because combat itself doesn't get much more interesting than that.
Registered Member #636
Joined: 1:42:07 am GMT 10/26/05
Posts: 505
I vehemently disagree that one HAS to play a Fighter...like a meatshield.
One doesn't.
I have already outlined different ways to do this - break the mold, think outside of the box.
So far, all I have seen offered as examples are typical Fighter stuff. Click, swing, yadda yadda.
Ranged weapons can be used, instead of rushing into combat Throwing weapons are underestimated, I think. Parry may seem a waste, but believe me, if used in a Party, it becomes useful.
On Thain, it has uses (low magic environments are favorable for Parry).
There is Taunting, Knockdown, Disarm, Called Shot.
In truth, there are many things that a Fighter can do differently, if one begins to think about things differently.
It is this type of thinking that led to the creation of the Melee Mage, for example.
I know that there are some very brilliant minds on Thain. I have seen you in action, seen your RP, read your stories and the products of your seemingly limitless imagination.
So turn yourself to this challenge, and think outside of the box.
Fire up a leveller, and test some things out. DL the Thain Mod, and put your creation to a test run.
[ The Island of Thain ]
Let us talk about Fighters
