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  • scratch_flannigan
    scratch_flannigan  3 days ago

    Thanks Akivaria! And thanks for joining us! smile

  • scratch_flannigan
    scratch_flannigan  3 days ago

    Zhymm! Section Six misses you!

  • Akivaria
    Akivaria  3 days ago

    For whoever runs the Section Six quests, thanks! Had fun!

  • scratch_flannigan
    scratch_flannigan  3 days ago

    That will be 7pm CDT (GMT - 5).

  • scratch_flannigan
    scratch_flannigan  3 days ago

    Section Six will start in about 2 hours from the time of this post.

    Good(ish) characters of LEVEL 8 or below.

    We will meet in the Iron Minogon in Webster's Landing.

    Just assume that your character received a mysterious invitation.

    I will be IG as Taran if you have any questions! smile

  • Cuchuwyn
    Cuchuwyn  5 days ago

    Zhymm, tell her we have to send you back and try again! But the server seems to be stable and working as normal now!

  • Jandari
    Jandari  6 days ago

    HEY VIC!!!!

  • Zhymm
    Zhymm  6 days ago

    Cuch, my wife will be glad to hear this. She's said I need 'fixing' for years.

  • Cuchuwyn
    Cuchuwyn  6 days ago

    As a general announcement, we are aware that factions at the moment are behaving in a less than ideal manner, with many characters being hostile to, or friendly to, random factions. We are looking into the cause of this, and have reset the server several times to try to fix it, but nothing has worked thus far. If you see a DM on, feel free to ask one of us to manually fix you in the meantime. Thanks!

  • Glognar
    Glognar  6 days ago

    Hey Vic! Lot of people remember you. I hope life is treating you and yours well.


Forums
The Island of Thain :: Forums :: Neverwinter Nights
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PvP Aftermaths, Captures, and You!

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Squidget
3:05:19 am GMT 09/01/18
Squidget !
Registered Member #20 Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 6944
PvP is messy in NWN, and what to do after a PvP can be even messier. I think a lot of players struggle with that first RP moment after they realize they've lost/won. This post isn't directed at any event in particular, but is more the combined tips and tricks from several events I've observed. There are no solid rules here, just guidelines that I've found tend to make the aftermath of PvP events run a lot smoother. This isn't about how PvP starts, which is covered in the FAQ and general PvP rules. It's more to give ideas on what you can do after it ends.

  • Make losing fun! There are all kinds of great scenes and story that can come from the aftermath of a fight. Having a player on the other end gives the potential for interesting consequences and story to come from a loss, of the kind you usually won't get from the AI-driven monsters. You can have a tense interrogation. A thematically appropriate curse. A memorable scar or or a creative and tasteful torture. A capture might lead into a daring rescue or narrow escape. The goal of all of these is the same - to create a scene where everyone involved (including the 'loser' of the encounter) has fun. If possible, try to have at least some ideas going into a PvP scene of what the consequences might be. Remember, even your worst IC enemies in PvP are still other players, looking to have fun interactive scenes where they get to make choices. If you're the winner of a PvP and want to keep the scene going, part of your task is finding a way to make that happen. For those who manage to squeak out a win, Uncle Ben's law is instructive here. The winner is the one who most often has to take the lead on this sort of story. But you'd be amazed what sort of fun consequences others can be willing to play out if they feel like you're working with them instead of just trying to enforce your will.

  • Communicate! This is the number one source of strife in conflict events, and it ties directly into the above. If you win a PvP and want to do something more to your enemy then leaving, run the idea by them before you try! "Hey, are you okay with being poisoned?" "Do you mind being thrown in a prison cell for a couple of days?" If something you're about to do is going to affect the other player's RP beyond the current moment, send them a tell and check with them first! Even if you ICly have them at your mercy! If you lose a PvP and feel like you'd be willing to RP out some consequences, feel free to communicate about what those are. Remember, no one can do anything permanent to your character that you don't allow. And whether you've won or lost, the only way these kinds of scenes ever work well is if everyone is on the same page. Sending a tell early on to give ideas or get communication going can pay off hugely in avoiding headaches down the road. You don't want to be in a situation where as the other player is getting more and more silently frustrated with the path you're taking. RP with someone who's frustrated is never going to be much fun, even if you're ICly winning.

  • Make the outcomes interactive. Sure, mechanically you win a PvP by 'killing' someone, but OOCly it isn't much fun to lie around dead for a whole scene watching others do all the typing. For the winners, if you're going to RP further with your fallen foe, find a reason to bring them back to life. Even if it's just that you're worried the stones might grab them if you don't. Give them the opportunity to emote things - wrestling with bindings, snarly dialog, tense conversation. The goal is to interact with your fallen opponent, not to interact around them. Sometimes, it can be more fun to ignore the dead state and assume your opponent was just downed and is no longer able to fight. For those who've lost, make sure not to abuse these things - you've already been defeated in direct combat, and you shouldn't start PvP up again unless the other player agrees. If you're going to try to fight, trick, or wriggle your way out, focus on doing it with emotes and skill checks, or creative escape attempts rather than turning around and starting another PvP the moment your opponent 's buffs run down.

  • Avoid indefinite captures - A character being temporarily out of action or in the hands of an enemy faction can be a great RP catalyst. It can lead to exciting, interesting scenes where someone is temporarily at their enemy's mercy, or imprisoned and in need of help. It can lead them to interact with characters and situations they otherwise never would. Incur real debts to their allies and have their trust in others tested. However, if you're going to imprison someone's character for longer than a single scene, it's triply important to be aware of all of the above. Talk with the other player early on and tell them what you have in mind, and in particular, how long you want to keep their character out of action. If you're going to capture someone, it's your obligation to make sure they get some good scenes and RP out of it, instead of just sitting alone in a locked room. If the RP is drying up, find a way for them to escape. It's okay to work with your enemies on their escapes! The goal isn't to win, but to tell a good story.

  • Respect your Opponents! -It's no secret that egos often come into RP. We play our characters a lot, build an affection for them, and PvP is a time when egos are at greatest risk of clashing. Part of making sure a PvP experience is good is making sure that the other player still feels like their character and their nature is acknowledged and respected OOC, even if they are being attacked ICly. This can take a lot of forms, on both sides. For both winners and losers, consider giving some special attention or emotes to wounds or injuries the other player might have inflicted during the fight. Or consider pushing the RP in a direction where even the defeated player still gets to put some of their IC strengths to use. Try to understand the other character well enough to turn even a defeat into a fun moment instead of a frustrating one. No one expects you to be nice to your fallen enemies (unless that's your character), but try to at least acknowledge their actions and give them some sort of success. Even if your character is the most dishonorable of bastards, this pays off. If the other player walks away with a feeling that they've accomplished at least something, they're far more likely to RP out consequences of their own. Or even to come and find you for another scene in the future.

  • If you aren't sure what to do, you can always just leave (or ask the winner to leave you.) Respawning doesn't cost any XP or gold after a PvP death, and while an OOC rez is a great gesture, it isn't entirely mandatory in light of that. If you don't feel like you'd be able to give the other player a good scene for any reason, it's sometimes better to walk away and let the fallen player respawn work out their own consequences, if any. Often, they'll come up with something cool on their own. If you lost and don't feel like being captured or otherwise tormented, it's okay to say that you're simply going to respawn. You shouldn't feel obligated to try to force an outcome if you don't feel like you can make it fun and interesting for everyone involved. When in doubt, leave things open and let the loser of the encounter fill in the blanks of what they might have suffered, or not. It's their character, and their choice!


That's all I have. Feel free to discuss or share any tips of your own. PvP encounters in NWN can be fraught with frustration, but they don't always have to be. Conflict is the root of narrative, and playing conflicts and outcomes out collaboratively instead of competitively goes a long way towards building better stories.
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scratch_flannigan
3:29:45 am GMT 09/02/18
scratch_flannigan Squawk!
Registered Member #648 Joined: 1:50:32 am GMT 11/20/05
Posts: 1307
A great post that should probably be stickied.

I know very little about PvP, having only been in 3 PvP fights (the first took place over 10 years ago, and I got into it accidentally, but that is another story biglaugh ) I can certainly say that there is a very serious initial feeling of frustration upon losing, even if I did not really plan to win.

There are also other types of conflicts and character interactions that can wear on one here. When a character is rude or disrespectful to one of my characters, it can sometimes feel like the player is being disrespectful to me, in the moment.

Someone here once wrote about how Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy are enemies, but Daniel Radcliffe and Tom Felton are friends. This really helped me put it in perspective. The writer and actors need both characters to win and lose some to build a good story.

I realize that it is a game, and not a movie. Random rolls and competition are an important part of the fun. Still, I think this cooperation will lead to better character development for everyone involved. *shrug*

A crazy thing that I have done when I have been frustrated with conflict from other characters is to look through the "Feeling Courageous ? " threads. This reminds me that the people behind these characters are people with families and pets and friends, and not the characters they enjoy playing.

Even if the player has been an a$$hat a couple of times, I gotta remember that I have laid down some a$$hat time here myself. Most of the time, that kind of behavior comes from misunderstandings. It can probably be sorted out just as well with calm words as it can with harsh ones. If not, and the person is a perpetual a$$hat ? Well..I leave that advice up to the Staff here.

For what it is worth, I can respect a good old fashioned "rage log" if someone just feels too frustrated to carry on playing for the moment. Logging out may be better than saying all the stuff on your mind at the time to the player that made you mad. The story can always carry on with some explanation about "magically vanishing" or something, and the OOC part can be sorted out later with pm's or tells when things cool off.

Of course, if one finds themself rage logging regularly, they should probably take a break from whatever part of the game is wearing on their nerves so much.

Just my 2 cents. smile
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Kyssyt
10:11:11 am GMT 09/02/18
Kyssyt Registered Member #1273 Joined: 2:56:54 pm GMT 03/23/08
Posts: 536
On the point of characters being rude, I have a couple of characters who can be, one in particular who can appear charming but deep down feels himself superior to almost everyone he meets except other elves. When he's being especially scornful or dismissive I try to remember to send tells explaining this is him, not me, but I don't always remember who I've communicated this with before and I don't want to be boring about it. So if eg. Eswyn says or does something that gives offence, feel free to check with me that it's him and not me being a dick.

Likewise PvP; for me when it crops up, OOC communication is key - and it's always nice when an adversarial ''PvP'' encounter doesn't end in actual mechanical fighting. Real life conflicts hardly ever end in fights (in my world anyway) and IMO there's no reason ThainWorld has to always end in actual violence either.

EtA, Great OP. Good points well made. For me PvP can be easier for me to lose than to win, because of how another player can sometimes lose. I'd sometimes rather lose so we both / all leave the encounter happy, than win and leave someone feeling annoyed. I think it is all about separating from the character .. and remembering that a lot of stuff we RP can't be done mechanically so a degree of honourable conduct is necessary to make it all work out.

And finally, IRL I hope I'm a nice person. Happy to talk OOC in tells. I assume other players are the same. Good faith, let's always have plenty of that. Fun for all. I'm into cliche now, I'll stop this edit nonsense.
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Squidget
6:42:51 am GMT 09/03/18
Squidget !
Registered Member #20 Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 6944
If I had my way, I'd play out a lot of my my PvP encounters in pure text form. While I think a clever player can create great PvP encounters in the NWN engine, it's heavily dependent on build and situation. At some point, I think exploring a more RP-based means of resolving conflicts could be a cool design challenge. Some way for players to fight it out that allows for more posting rather than pure combat. It would probably have to be a purely optional system for players, but oftentimes I think it would work better than pure NWN fighting, especially for 1v1 duels.

There's always going to be some kind of winner though. Good communication can make it much less frustrating to be on the receiving end.
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Cuchuwyn
7:04:26 am GMT 09/03/18
Cuchuwyn Registered Member #24041 Joined: 4:19:01 am GMT 01/24/17
Posts: 1686
I think one possible solution would be to RP out a series of opposed skill rolls, but this of course favors skill-heavy builds (and high-int builds), though options could include using ability rolls as well as skill rolls. If players agreed to something like a best-of-five or whatever, and then RP'ed out the character's actions, that could be an interesting story.

Roll just a straight d20 to determine who goes first. After that, whichever character rolls higher in the skill/ability has to go first in the following round (so as to give both players a chance to react, since rolling second will have OOC advantages that you kind of have to design around I would think).

Can't roll the same skill/ability twice in an encounter (so no just hitting the /str button for Barbarians, or the /spellcraft for wizards, etc. =p).

I dunno, maybe it would suck, but it could be a way to get traditionally non-important skills in PVP a way to shine.
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Squidget
7:29:49 am GMT 09/04/18
Squidget !
Registered Member #20 Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 6944
Cuchuwyn wrote ...

I think one possible solution would be to RP out a series of opposed skill rolls, but this of course favors skill-heavy builds (and high-int builds), though options could include using ability rolls as well as skill rolls. If players agreed to something like a best-of-five or whatever, and then RP'ed out the character's actions, that could be an interesting story.

Roll just a straight d20 to determine who goes first. After that, whichever character rolls higher in the skill/ability has to go first in the following round (so as to give both players a chance to react, since rolling second will have OOC advantages that you kind of have to design around I would think).

Can't roll the same skill/ability twice in an encounter (so no just hitting the /str button for Barbarians, or the /spellcraft for wizards, etc. =p).

I dunno, maybe it would suck, but it could be a way to get traditionally non-important skills in PVP a way to shine.

I liked this a lot, so I put a dueling system together based on some of these ideas. Details here. Thanks to Cuch for the idea and for helping me test it!
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Payne
2:37:50 pm GMT 09/04/18
Payne EXCELSIOR!
Registered Member #613 Joined: 9:18:34 pm GMT 09/09/05
Posts: 6849
Another addition is a big one, least I think so.

  • Respect consequences: If you are made hostile to a faction, or even imprisoned, its the world reacting to what you did. It is not a DM picking on you, or picking favorites. If its a player treating you hostile, or group of characters due to something you did, accept it. Sure it might lessen your 'fun' to sit in a cell, not be able to visit a city, or use a certain merchant. But the adage stays true "Do the crime, pay the time".
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barakka
4:14:03 pm GMT 09/04/18
barakka Registered Member #223 Joined: 3:05:42 am GMT 08/26/04
Posts: 1317
Payne wrote ...

Another addition is a big one, least I think so...
Sure it might lessen your 'fun' to sit in a cell...

Respectfully, I disagree on this singular point, I believe that capture or prisoner RP can be handled in a number of ways better than just sitting in a cell, especially if the imprisonment is coming from the DM side of things. The onus is usually placed on the player of the imprisoned character to 'provide their own fun,' with the opinion often being that if they did not want a character to rot in Blackstone/some jail, they should not have played some sort of villain. At that point, the player is often now locked out of that character as a means to play the game, and subject to the availability, time zones, weather, or general RL wrenches that get thrown in everyone's lives for rescue, RP, or anything other than rattling the bars on the cage. If you are not the sort who plays many alts, or indeed for some players who have none or do not roll alts, it can become a form of OOC punishment for IC actions.

With just Thain as an example, there have been players who have sat with a character twiddling thumbs behind bars on the server anywhere from a week to a month, waiting on others, before simply moving on in the RP because nothing is happening. I believe that with the creativity of players here, there are surely better options than just putting someone in a cell.

And while good communication is, as always, the heart of the matter, we all know that across all the above mentioned, things can fall through the cracks even with the best of intentions wink
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Tuckerr99
7:53:56 pm GMT 09/04/18
Tuckerr99 Registered Member #23932 Joined: 1:14:58 am GMT 05/12/15
Posts: 408
I would agree with the above. When it comes to capture plots, there should be a timeline agreed upon by all parties as rigidly as possible.

Being unable to log in on a character and take part in an event because something dragged on too long, or being unable to simply interact with people can be somewhat frustrating, especially if part of the imprisonment or its consequences is not something you either agreed to or knew would be happening.

Communication is key. Always try to leave people an out.
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Squidget
8:08:27 pm GMT 09/04/18
Squidget !
Registered Member #20 Joined: 8:30:40 am GMT 02/25/04
Posts: 6944
Agreed on both points. I think it's less about accepting jail time specifically, so much as being willing to play out some consequences for conflict. It's no fun to deal with a villain (or hero!) who laughs in the face of any IC consequences because "the stones will just revive me" or whatever.

In general, part of playing a conflict-heavy character is taking your hits. Finding ways to make other players feel like they have an impact when they score a win against you. There are a lot of more interesting ways to do this more fun than doing endless prison time, but it's still important to find something.

(A corollary is that the less often you're taken down, the more impactful that takedown can be!)
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